standard float?

[mike l.]

micahel davis and i were sitting in a good los angeles 20-40 game the other night when this hand came up.

i had Td8d in the cutoff and a guy from middle position who is pretty fishy raised, i cold called, the bb who is a semi-lag fish calls.

the flop is Kh7d5h. checked to raiser who bets, i raise, bb calls two cold, raiser 3 bets, i call, bb calls.

the turn is 4d. bb bets, raiser raises, i cold call two bets.

i think michael was really impressed with the way i played the hand but too shy to admit it.

[bobdibble]

I don't get it.

Can you explain your thinking pre-flop and on the flop?

[Klepton]

this is beautiful

[bernie]

I guess I'm missing something.

b

[mike l.]

preflop: i have great position, the nit on the button (that'd be michael davis) wont call, and i want to play as many hands as i can against these loose bad playing turkeys. also, i was bored and frisky. and i was sooooooted.

flop: there's no reason to think this flop necessarily had to hit either of these guys, im going to raise this flop and see about either getting to the river for free if it feels like im getting called down, or taking it down with a follow up bet on the turn. once it gets reraised back to me the pot is to big for me to dump for one more bet with my backdoor draws.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
the nit on the button (that'd be michael davis) wont call,

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, this is a key piece of info. If the button was a looser, less nittier player, would you play it the same? I also take it you're folding the turn unimproved if bet into?

b

[worm33]

To play this hand optimaly, (as if it ever could) wouldnt u want the button to not be a nit? I would much rather have him be the exact opposite of a nit, I dont care if i get to act last or not.

[mike l.]

for me part of the interest in playing the hand was to see if i could steal the pot away on a ragged sort of uninteresting board against preflop raiser and bb (bb was coming for sure), also i figured if i floppped a draw or a pair or a monster i could play the hand close to optimally while my opponents would play their hands poorly if they flopped good or otherwise. now this is all what i think in situations like this, it doesnt make it true of course.

anyway position makes a huge difference in setting up plays like this.

anyway after my play on the flop backfired i had no intention of continuing to bluff or semibluff as it was clear the preflop raiser was showdown committed.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
for me part of the interest in playing the hand was to see if i could steal the pot away on a ragged sort of uninteresting board against preflop raiser and bb (bb was coming for sure), also i figured if i floppped a draw or a pair or a monster i could play the hand close to optimally while my opponents would play their hands poorly if they flopped good or otherwise. now this is all what i think in situations like this, it doesnt make it true of course.

anyway position makes a huge difference in setting up plays like this.

anyway after my play on the flop backfired i had no intention of continuing to bluff or semibluff as it was clear the preflop raiser was showdown committed.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how does coldcalling put you in a better spot to do this? You will take down a lot more of those ragged flops if you three bet preflop and get that calling station in the BB out. The way you played it, you are pretty much garenteeing yourself to see the flop at least three handed with two guys who arnt going to lay anything down and might even play back at you. I also really doubt your image allows you to get away with too much of this stuff. Dont you normally splash around a lot? I think making an occational play like this works better with a tight image agaist someone who is going to give you a lot of repsect and perhaps fold too much postflop. I dont know I think this one is bad.

On the flop if you decide you are going to take a shot at it, you are going to have to commit a minimum of 2BBs. Your flop raise is pretty much always going to get called and you'll need to fire again on the turn. I do think these types of board, K _ _, Q _ _, etc are the some of the best to take shots at agaist LP raisers, but these guys suck and will probably find there way to the river a lot of the time.

Anyhow, I would just fold preflop probably 99% of the time. It would be tough (impossible) to convnice me anything else was right, although if you guys were just fooling around and you wanted to see a flop then I get it.

[mike l.]

bb is not folding his bb for 2 cold the vast majority of the time. he came to play.

"two guys who arnt going to lay anything down and might even play back at you."

they are not driving hard with worse than top pair and they
can even slow down with that. preflop raiser might fold stuff like AQ and AJ on that flop (or on the turn when he misses again). they are tilty and like to chase but they can get scared and be made to check. this is 20-40 hp not 40-80 commerce. they are more passive and weaker and looser than most. they are not tricky in any decent way at least.

"Dont you normally splash around a lot?"

more than some but not as much as many. much much less than i used too. i tend to splash more when showing off for fellow 2+2ers.

"Anyhow, I would just fold preflop probably 99% of the time."

sounds right. im at about 95%.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm missing something.



[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]

sounds right. im at about 95%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got ya, you just threw off with the standard part. Being bored/drunk can be fine reasons to play hands when goofing around with your friends.

[tighterr]

This post is awsome!!! He got into a pot with cards which were very likely to be live against two players who make alot of mistakes. I think once this pot started to get juicy his pot odds speak enough for the cold calls, let alone thinking of the implied odds which could follow. I just hope you can get away from this hand if the river is a blank. all in all I love it very very good hand

[PokerBob]

In my admittedly limited thinking, I find it hard to believe that T8s can be protitable for 2 bets pf all that often.

[tighterr]

He is not saying this is a regular move he makes. This was a case where he has position on bad players. To isolate bad players is very profitable.

[Irishboy]

awful on every street.

inexcusable

[tighterr]

Please explain why you think its so bad?

[Michael Davis]

"i think michael was really impressed with the way i played the hand but too shy to admit it."

Well, it is troubling that on about 50% of the hands played I have to think, "Well, maybe that's something an expert can do that I can't."

-Michael

[Nomar]

i love the line, as close to an expert float as there is.

The one main problem though with this hand is you are playing too LOW, players at these limit are NOT concerned with reading your hand and saving bets.

I like the line tho, fire some black chips and we have an expert play, IMO....

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
standard float?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course.

GoT

[Schneids]

I don't really have anything to add but I'd like to share a story about one of my floating experiences one time:

So 5 or 6 handed live game. UTG raises. He's a pretty solid player on the overall whole. I cold call from the button with some cards. Tight blinds fold, so we're HU to the flop which was some more cards. UTG says outloud "I know what you're gonna do" and checks, I bet, he folds.

The power of the float is strong.

[rigoletto]

Mike, you are to happy, about playing poker, for your own good!

[Philuva]

Completely standard. How else would you play it?

[andyfox]

And you guys really like this better than the hand where I have A-T and my opponent has A-A and the post-flop action goes check-check-check-check-check-check?

[J.A.Sucker]

I'm glad to see you back, my friend. Hopefully, we'll have dinner soon.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
And you guys really like this better than the hand where I have A-T and my opponent has A-A and the post-flop action goes check-check-check-check-check-check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting is more fun than chekking. Why do you think these guys get into trouble all the time /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a pretty solid player on the overall whole. I cold call from the button with some cards. Tight blinds fold, so we're HU to the flop which was some more cards

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is the perfect situation in which to float. You have a solid opponent who could be raising lots of non-showdownable hands. These guys and weak tight guys are good candidates to float against. The second part of the equation is you are on the button. If you weren't on the button it would be important to have tight opps behind you. The third part is tight blinds. Loose players in the blind won't fold preflop and they won't give your late position bet any respect after the flop.

In Mikes case the loose raiser and the loose player in the blind makes it a bad spot to try to float IMO.

[Nomar]

i dont agree roy, one passive loose player behind you will help sell the auto flop raise...

[Diplomat]

No, you are not.

-Diplomat

[haakee]

[ QUOTE ]
i think michael was really impressed with the way i played the hand but too shy to admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think you're projecting. Just dump it preflop and avoid this mess.

[haakee]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[PokerPrince]

Looking to go broke in a hurry?

PokerPrince

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Completely standard. How else would you play it?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold preflop

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
He is not saying this is a regular move he makes. This was a case where he has position on bad players. To isolate bad players is very profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know you are the bomb when you can coldcall with a subpar holding and then get accused of "isolating". Awesome.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: i have great position, the nit on the button (that'd be michael davis) wont call, and i want to play as many hands as i can against these loose bad playing turkeys. also, i was bored and frisky. and i was sooooooted.

flop: there's no reason to think this flop necessarily had to hit either of these guys, im going to raise this flop and see about either getting to the river for free if it feels like im getting called down, or taking it down with a follow up bet on the turn. once it gets reraised back to me the pot is to big for me to dump for one more bet with my backdoor draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is the loose turkey again?

[sexypanda]

Sorry if this is a noob question, but what exactly is the definition of the term "float"?

[Clarkmeister]

I'm folding this preflop without a second thought and no one accuses me of being too tight.

[DeeJ]

float -> PCS /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sexypanda]

Ok, I suck. PCS=?

[DeeJ]

it was intended to further confuse, i confess /images/graemlins/blush.gif

PCS = Pointless Chip Spewing

Granted mike might be messing with the loose players minds and it isn't a 1:1 relationship. But mostly it applies /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Gabe]

you're sick.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this is a noob question, but what exactly is the definition of the term "float"?

[/ QUOTE ]

It think it means that you call a pre-flop raise with some crappy hand so that you can win the pot with a raise on a later street, usually the turn.

I'm told in California it is mostly done by Asian ladies with blue hair.

[fearme]

wow tahts ugly, i hope ur kidding

[Diplomat]

Close. But it's much more. The true nature of the floater is a mystery; indeed one must be a floater to know what a floater does, and even then, you might not know you are a floater. Unless, of course, you have blue hair and are hot, and win few pots at showdown while playing %30+ of your hands.

-Diplomat

[andyfox]

You're too tight.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this is a noob question, but what exactly is the definition of the term "float"?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's how "good" players say they cold called, because "cold called" is usually reserved in describing the action of bad players.

At least, that's the impression I get.

[mike l.]

listen ive played a lot in LA with these so called floater chicks and here's the bottom line:

they are usually not good players. i mean some of the asian girls are truly good and i can point them out to you, but some of them are medicore at best. ask snakehead. none of them, and i do mean NONE of them have a solid understanding of poker theory (2+2 lit, etc), what they do may intersect in some ways but generally they are self taught.

when you see these floater types they are oftentimes calling with an unacceptable cold calling hand like KJ. now lucky for them they play in games where utg raises dont exclude hands like KT and K9 (player dependent). they use reads, guts, and a whole lot of cash to put themselves in position against a player they see as vulnerable, on tilt, or weak, and that's when they make the raise.

one last thing: cold calling is rampant, at least out here. someone raises and then 2 or 3 people cold call, decent players, awful players, everything in between. the blinds call a lot too. we're in the serious minority around here in our reraise or dump mentality, even though it's clearly the right way to play.

as with most of my hands, this hand was sort of a joke when i played it, but it brings up some interesting ideas about position, seemingly good flops to steal on, and how errors compound into following through with the hand making good calls. specifically: preflop is a mistake (although not enormous because of the players involved), and the flop raise is the biggest error (although also not without some justification). but the rest of the hand plays itself.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
And you guys really like this better than the hand where I have A-T and my opponent has A-A and the post-flop action goes check-check-check-check-check-check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of hands like this mike is never going to have a hand go check/check....

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding this preflop without a second thought and no one accuses me of being too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, they accuse me of being tight. But then they just coldcall my raises anyways.

b

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it.

Can you explain your thinking pre-flop and on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
can't think of too many hands i'd cold call with here, maybe a QJs or TJs

[Steve Giufre]

Thought this was funny cause I was just thinking about your post when I got dealt the 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I couldnt resist.
Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $30.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has 5c 5d (one pair, fives).
Hero has Td 8d (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.75 BB. </font>

And I remembered to get there.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
And you guys really like this better than the hand where I have A-T and my opponent has A-A and the post-flop action goes check-check-check-check-check-check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not Andy. Yours is way better.

[Diplomat]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I never meant to imply that they were winning players.

-Diplomat

[Ray Zee]

works if you never get unlucky and find someone in the pot who have an overpair to your ten. or has you dominated well. with four unaccounted for its not so hard to run into a tough spot.

[Lestat]

Are you a winning player? No, seriously.. Do-you-beat-the-game?