Keep the short stack alive?

[Newt_Buggs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1210)
Button (t2526)
Hero (t5896)
BB (t368)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero?

[beeyjay]

ya fold.

[Runner Runner]

fold, only if they are letting you get away with murder. If they are more tenacious players, push.

[iMsoLucky0]

It is kind of a tough spot too because the 2nd biggest stack is on your right. If you fold here you have to push every other hand with any two. If you can make yourself do that, then yes, you should fold.

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]
It is kind of a tough spot too because the 2nd biggest stack is on your right. If you fold here you have to push every other hand with any two. If you can make yourself do that, then yes, you should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

why couldn't you complete and push any 2 on the next hand even if you double up the SS?

[nokona13]

This seems like a text-book situation where you have a giant stack and there's two other good sized stacks and you want shorty hanging on making the mids nervous about playing hands with you. Unless the mids have proven themselves to be absolutely maniacal calling station luckboxes, I think you should fold here.

[jgunnip]

Just making sure I understand the logic behind this. You want to keep the small stack around when you're the really big stack so the two middle stacks continue to play very tight while they wait for the small stack to bust. correct?

[montybear]

i was in an almost identical situation the other night. but i only would have had to like like 60 to complete. i folded and some other guy types 'wtf?'
very next hand with 89, i push his BB. he calls with AT, realizing what i was doing. i promptly bust him on the bubble. he then said many many things that hurt my feelings, as i wrote back "dude, you could have folded". won the tourny four hands later. it was fun, i laughed.

[J-Lo]

Yes, meanwhile-- Newt steals the blinds of the other 2 stacks ALL DAY. With any two cards, it sometimes backfires when their retarded asses call u with A6 and u have 62 and the 2k stack doubled up, then u push w/ AT and then the now 5k stacks calls u w/ JJ and u finish 4th (happened to me at the $33-- pretty mad about it)

[Newt_Buggs]

My main concern is the desperate short stack once I fold. I'm assuming that if I fold this then I have to push any two for the next 2 hands correct? I'm worried that the BB will still be desperate and call with trash that is better than my trash, thereby cutting into my FE a lot.

[jgunnip]

Ok, so you in these situations you have to push any two when the middle stacks are in the blinds?

[poboys]

The SS is on your left, which clearly is less attractive. You are right in that he will have to call pretty much any-two. This strategy works great when there are TWO short-stacks and one moderate stack and you have a huge stack.

Personally, I would push here. Taking the blinds gives you more chips, and now you can attack the medium stack (not with any two, but just more than you normally would), since he's more likely to wait for the new SS to get aggressive.

[jcm4ccc]

100% fold. Not even close.

It's great when the short stack is on your left. You can fold the small blinds. Then, when you push the next hand, the short stack is going to fold (unless he gets a hand) because he is hoping that the BB will call your bet and go out in 4th place. Same thing on the next hand. The short stack will fold, hoping that the SB or the BB will call your bet. The SB or BB won't call your bet, because they know that the short stack is not long for this world. Then, when the short stack is on the BB, you can fold your small blind again and keep him on life support for another round.

It doesn't get much better than this.

[gasgod]

I don't think it's worth 568 chips just to keep shorty alive. I think it's time to take his money and run for the goal line, if you can. Just complete, as you are a slight favorite.

If the blinds were lower, and shorty had fewer chips, it would be more attractive to fold.

GG

[curtains]

I would not fold.

[DaveKForty7]

[ QUOTE ]
My main concern is the desperate short stack once I fold. I'm assuming that if I fold this then I have to push any two for the next 2 hands correct? I'm worried that the BB will still be desperate and call with trash that is better than my trash, thereby cutting into my FE a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's going to be more desperate this hand than he will be next hand. Plus, he'll be able to see two more hands for free, and he can fold can hope that one of the mid stacks busts in the next few hands.

[Newt_Buggs]

hmmmm, we seem to be getting some dissention amongst even the very experienced players. Let me quantify out the possibilities to see if that helps.
blinds are 200/400
calling:
55% of the time hero will win producing:
UTG (t2526)
Hero (t6264)
BB(t1210)

45% hero will lose:
UTG (t2526)
Hero (t5528)
SB (t736)
BB (t1210)




folding:
UTG (t2526)
Hero (t5696)
SB (t568)
BB (t1210)

[curtains]

btw if you lose the allin, you will now push any 2 on button+ probably cutoff too. It's also less likely SB calls in that scenario.

[jcm4ccc]

Here's a similar history where I kept the short stack alive for 19 hands. Notice that:

<ul type="square"> I lost 2 all-ins I always folded to the small stack I ended up with a much greater proportion of chips than what I started with They almost always folded to me when I was in the BB Fish can learn [/list]


***** Game 2092605383 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3350)
Seat 5: venezia930 (330)
Seat 7: camperwolf (3195)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1125)
venezia930 posts small blind (200)
camperwolf posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc raises (3350) to 3350
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf: 72o, shall i call? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
camperwolf folds.


***** Game 2092605908 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3950)
Seat 5: venezia930 (130)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2795)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1125)
camperwolf posts small blind (200)
burgipoker posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
jcm4ccc raises (3950) to 3950
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092606163 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4550)
Seat 5: venezia930 (130)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2595)
Seat 9: burgipoker (725)
burgipoker posts small blind (200)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092606495 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4750)
Seat 5: venezia930 (130)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2595)
Seat 9: burgipoker (525)
jcm4ccc posts small blind (200)
venezia930 posts big blind (130)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
camperwolf calls (400)
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc folds.
Creating Main Pot with $390 with venezia930
** Dealing Flop ** : 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
** Dealing Turn ** : J/images/graemlins/spade.gif
** Dealing River ** : 3/images/graemlins/club.gif
venezia930 net +260 J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif
camperwolf lost -60 A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

***** Game 2092606836 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4550)
Seat 5: venezia930 (390)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2535)
Seat 9: burgipoker (525)
venezia930 posts small blind (200)
camperwolf posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc raises (4550) to 4550
jcm4ccc is all-In.
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.

***** Game 2092607088 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (5150)
Seat 5: venezia930 (190)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2135)
Seat 9: burgipoker (525)
camperwolf posts small blind (200)
burgipoker posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
jcm4ccc folds.
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf raises (600) to 800
burgipoker calls (125)
** Dealing Flop ** : 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif
** Dealing Turn ** : 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
** Dealing River ** : 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
** Summary **
camperwolf lost -525 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
burgipoker net +525 K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

***** Game 2092607458 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (5150)
Seat 5: venezia930 (190)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1610)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1050)
burgipoker posts small blind (200)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker raises (850) to 1050
burgipoker is all-In.
jcm4ccc folds.

***** Game 2092607800 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4750)
Seat 5: venezia930 (190)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1610)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1450)
jcm4ccc posts small blind (200)
venezia930 posts big blind (190)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker raises (1450) to 1450
burgipoker is all-In.
jcm4ccc folds.

***** Game 2092608149 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4550)
Seat 5: venezia930 (570)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1610)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1270)
venezia930 posts small blind (200)
camperwolf posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc raises (4550) to 4550
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.

***** Game 2092608428 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (5150)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1210)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1270)
camperwolf posts small blind (200)
burgipoker posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
jcm4ccc raises (5150) to 5150
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker calls (870)
burgipoker is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
** Dealing Turn ** : 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
** Dealing River ** : 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
jcm4ccc lost -1270
burgipoker net +1470 A[club, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

***** Game 2092608817 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3880)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1010)
Seat 9: burgipoker (2740)
burgipoker posts small blind (250)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092609054 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4130)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1010)
Seat 9: burgipoker (2490)
jcm4ccc posts small blind (250)
venezia930 posts big blind (370)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc folds.

***** Game 2092609298 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3880)
Seat 5: venezia930 (620)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1010)
Seat 9: burgipoker (2490)
venezia930 posts small blind (250)
camperwolf posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc raises (3880) to 3880
jcm4ccc is all-In.
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf calls (510)
camperwolf is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
** Dealing Turn ** : Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
** Dealing River ** : T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
** Summary **
jcm4ccc lost -1010
camperwolf net +1260 J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif
camperwolf: phew

***** Game 2092609721 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (2870)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2270)
Seat 9: burgipoker (2490)
camperwolf posts small blind (250)
burgipoker posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
jcm4ccc raises (2870) to 2870
jcm4ccc is all-In.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092610044 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3620)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2020)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1990)
burgipoker posts small blind (250)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092610277 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3870)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2020)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1740)
jcm4ccc posts small blind (250)
venezia930 posts big blind (370)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc folds.

***** Game 2092610494 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (3620)
Seat 5: venezia930 (620)
Seat 7: camperwolf (2020)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1740)
venezia930 posts small blind (250)
camperwolf posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc raises (3620) to 3620
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
camperwolf: why doesn’t he call when the small stack is all in?

***** Game 2092610758 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (4370)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1520)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1740)
camperwolf posts small blind (250)
burgipoker posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
jcm4ccc raises (4370) to 4370
jcm4ccc is all-In.
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.
burgipoker: i don't understand that either

***** Game 2092611053 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (5120)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1270)
Seat 9: burgipoker (1240)
burgipoker posts small blind (250)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
venezia930 folds.
camperwolf folds.
burgipoker folds.

***** Game 2092611314 *****
Seat 4: jcm4ccc (5370)
Seat 5: venezia930 (370)
Seat 7: camperwolf (1270)
Seat 9: burgipoker (990)
jcm4ccc posts small blind (250)
venezia930 posts big blind (370)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
camperwolf calls (500)
burgipoker folds.
jcm4ccc folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
** Dealing Turn ** : A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
** Dealing River ** : 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
** Summary **
venezia930 lost 370 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
camperwolf net +620 K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif
camperwolf: i think he is smart.. wanted him in the game so he could push us

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
camperwolf: i think he is smart.. wanted him in the game so he could push us

[/ QUOTE ]

WE'VE GOT A THINKER!!

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
The SS is on your left, which clearly is less attractive. You are right in that he will have to call pretty much any-two. This strategy works great when there are TWO short-stacks and one moderate stack and you have a huge stack.
Personally, I would push here. Taking the blinds gives you more chips, and now you can attack the medium stack (not with any two, but just more than you normally would), since he's more likely to wait for the new SS to get aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it works best when there is ONE shortstack. if there are too then you have to fold too much to keep them alive, since you can opnly push against the medium stack left.

This is a clear cut 100% fold. The shortie will not be calling nearly as much as you think - because he will figure out soon that you are protecting him and letting him keep his BB. Sometimes he will - but then yer in the same shape as you are if you call here, sow hats the loss? Fold here, take his SB next hand, and keep pushing as long as they let you.you should have 80-90% of the chips by the time the bubble ends.

[Jack Fate]

this was a good discussion confirming what to do in this situation as the big stack. now what if you are one of the mid stacks? that is, if big stack is pushing on your blind every time in this kind of bubble situation, what should your calling standards be?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The SS is on your left, which clearly is less attractive. You are right in that he will have to call pretty much any-two. This strategy works great when there are TWO short-stacks and one moderate stack and you have a huge stack.
Personally, I would push here. Taking the blinds gives you more chips, and now you can attack the medium stack (not with any two, but just more than you normally would), since he's more likely to wait for the new SS to get aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it works best when there is ONE shortstack. if there are too then you have to fold too much to keep them alive, since you can opnly push against the medium stack left.

This is a clear cut 100% fold. The shortie will not be calling nearly as much as you think - because he will figure out soon that you are protecting him and letting him keep his BB. Sometimes he will - but then yer in the same shape as you are if you call here, sow hats the loss? Fold here, take his SB next hand, and keep pushing as long as they let you.you should have 80-90% of the chips by the time the bubble ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most absurd thing Ive ever heard? You expect 80-90% of the chips after the bubble?? Cmon, things do not always work out this rosy.

[HoldingFolding]

Classic. I was in the exact same situation last night, unfortunately, I didn't get any interesting comments. Shortstack went on to get 2nd after I stole from the 2 medium stacks from about 1800 down to virtually zero. I couldn't understand why they didn't realise what was happening and make a move against the smallstack themselves (he was to my right). A lot of fun though!