How to beat "the sponge" (psuedo long)

[JrJordan]

*Misspelled the title for the first post... take 2.

Fiddler: "Sponge. A sponge is a player to your left that cold-calls a lot, peels the flop and then bets the turn often enough to be annoying if you check to him. First he soaks up your bets then he spits them back at you."

He's on my top 5 for types of players I really hate to play. So let's fix it together. I have a few thoughts that might be worth discussing on these types of players.

1.) Position: Getting on the left of this guy is crucial to making the annoyance go away. Unfortunately we don't get to choose our seats all that often, so we might get stuck on his right. That being said, suppose there's two open seats at the table for you to choose from, one on the left and one on the right. What stats scream "sponge" (not just preflop, but more important something else that might share a little bit of his postflop play). My assumption would be a high VPIP, high cold call %, low PFR for preflop. With enough hands, post flop you might notice a difference between flop and turn aggression (when he bets into you after you check), though this is pure speculation.

2.) Preflop: A friend and I had a discussion about this earlier today. Suppose it's all folds to you in CO, with the sponge on the button and you have QJo. Your hand is normally good enough to raise for value here, hoping to buy position and play this against one or two of the blinds. Against a sponge though, your attempts to buy the button will fail 90% of the time. And QJo out of position doesn't have much showdown value. Is this a situation where it might be reasonable to open limp? More generalized, this type of player on our right suggests we should tighten our PFR standards, but loosen our overall limping standards (with hands such has K9o or J8s. We can get into the pot for cheap with a decent hand, and maximize our return when the flop hits us. Likewise, if it's checked around when you miss the flop, the sponge on the button will more often than not check through against multiple oppnents instead of taking a stab. You don't have the initiative like you would with a preflop raise. However, I feel that initiative is overrated against a sponge. He only looks at his own cards and doesn't really waste his time to figure out what your raise might mean.

3.) You hit: Simple enough, bet to your heart's content cause he aint folding. Turn, you have two possible lines. Against a very passive player, who doesn't necessarily bet every time you check to him, it's probably safest to just keep betting so it doesn't get checked through and you give a free card. Against a player who bets whenver he senses weakness, the occasional c/r will straighten him out.

4.)You miss: Typical line you bet, he calls, you curse because you know he was going to call, you miss the turn and check/fold your UI QJo. We all know there's no folding equity on the flop, but perhaps against certain sponges there is a decent edge to get them to fold the turn when they miss. Look for paired boards or lots of paint, which suggests you might have top pair and his missed 47o is drawing dead. River play, of course also dependent. More often than not though if you've gotten this far you're going to have some sort of showdown value. Perhaps you bet all the way down on a very draw happy board, and then check/call his bluff when he misses the river draw. Either way I think I personally need to look these guys up for one more bet, if for anything to use for future information.

Hopefully I can spark some discussion on this issue. I'm particularly interested on responses about the changes in preflop standards for this type of game.

[Grisgra]

Excellent post. Gotta think about this -- I think that a little open-limping with something like QJ or KT might be okay against this type of player, I dunno; the gist is that if you keep the size of the pot small, you'll maximize the chance that the floater makes mistakes postflop with the worst hand (i.e., when they call you with any two).

[7ontheline]

I've pretty much started only sitting to the left of known sponges - any further ways to beat them would be great. Open-limping seems so dirty though. . .

[einbert]

If you mean they are constantly calling the flop and betting the turn when checked to, I would start by checkraising the turn a lot with your strong hands.

[Nigel]

I think the problem with open limping is with the 10/20 sponge, who will bet when checked too with a high frequency. Against him you are going to need to hit the flop anyway, and you would probably not like both blinds along since protecting your hand after the flop becomes very difficult with him on your left.

I agree, sitting to the left of these guys is the way to go. Unfortunately, I've found these guys on both sides of me lately. I'm beginning to think the typical 10/20 party players are "worse" than the 5/10 guys, but in their total donkness accidentally play a more optimal SHed strategy.

Nigel

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a sponge though, your attempts to buy the button will fail 90% of the time. And QJo out of position doesn't have much showdown value. Is this a situation where it might be reasonable to open limp?

[/ QUOTE ]

since the sponge is going to play pretty much irrespective of what you do, why are you focusing on him? the variable seems to be the blinds. I think u want to consider the liklihood its 3 or 4 way if you raise, and then decide if you would rather play headup, 3 way or 4-way, assuming you can reasonably contol these outcomes with either a limp or a raise.

[MAxx]

pf- i keep raising hands that i would normally raise with from that spot.

most hands i raise with are going to be better than what he cc's with pf... but not all of them.

when we miss the flop/ and or turn.... sometimes we just have to give up. sometimes the floater actually has a hand.

howevever, it almost sounds like you underestmate how often you do hit.

vs this guy when we hit, we lead away and watch him pay off. sometimes we have a hand like a pp, where we dont need to hit and we can value bet the whole way.

other times we mix it up and get vicious with the turn and river cr's... when we suspect his floating- bet to when checked to ways.

it can be very demoralizing to him when you c/r him after he trys to make a play. b/c of the unnattural flow of you leading early streets and then you c/r him on a later street... he will often pay you off out of curiousity. then sometimes you can mix it up and c/r flush draws in this manner... then he starts giving free cards and makeing mistakes.

i think it is mainly that you have to have faith in getting value on your pf raises, and then realizing you need to play a little poker when the board comes out.

[Nigel]

I think one ting that hasn't been mentioned is how much you can lose when you have bad luck against the sponge. You keep missing flops, your semi-bluffs fail and meet his strong hands, your checkraises whiff or meet 3 bets, etc.

These guys can cost you a lot of money when thing go wrong against them, even worse, they destroy your table image when this happens and you start to look like the fish.

[MAxx]

you will not beat the SPONGER everytime.

bad luck or a bad run of cards is guaranteed to happen, sometimes you are going to have your ass handded to you. you can replace the word SPONGER above, with anyother description....... such as maniac, TAG, LAG, Donkey, Tard, or whatever.

we shouldnt be worried about that. we should be focused on playing in such a way that will get the better of him in the longterm. him specifically or spongers in general.

[SparkyDog]

1) You pretty much hit the nail on the head here. To their left would be better, but it would be best to be to the left of all players. Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal since you'll be able to count on the sponge overlimping behind you a lot and protecting the pot. He's a fairly predictable player, so having him on my left doesn't bother me that much. If I had to choose between spazzy aggro guy and the sponge, I'll sit to the left of the spazz.

2) Agree with the bit about tightening up on the PFR's and loosening the VPIP overall, assuming you have tight blinds. I think the blinds make a big impact on your strategy against a sponge OOP, especially in the CO/Hijack seats, where the most PFR'ing occurs.

With loose blinds the you should probably tighten up the PFR'ing of "non-robust" hands like K9o, A8o, QTo, etc. Basically hands that have only one card that makes a pair that's worth a [censored], and a little showdown value. Basically, since the sponge will really cramp your ability to protect your hand and fold out hands with live outs, there's no point in bloating the pot. And since the blinds will likely come along too, then raising compounds the fact that you had little to no equity, but now it's correct for the other to take one off a lot now that the pot is 6-8SB's.

However, with robust hands that can handle 3-4 way action, raising is fine. Basically most suited connectors that can make a TP are fine in a 3-4 handed pot with a good player playing them and having decent position, for two bets.

So with loose blinds you're not really lowering your PFR, just raising a different type of hand. Your VPIP will probably go up a bit compared to normal, because I think it'll be correct to limp in with the non-robust hands as opposed to raising. Hands like KTo or Ace-rag are usually either worth a lot, (~50%-70% equity) or a 3-6 out draw (worthless in a 3SB pot). So there's no need to pump with hands like these until the flop, but you may as well see a flop since it will make things pretty crystal clear for you.

With tight blinds you'd revert to a strategy resembling normal blind steal play, except you can expect to be OOP most of the time due to the sponge. (this won't happen often as blinds are usually too loose in the 5/10, IMO). High card power is the dominant factor here, and A5o is preferable to QJo by a long shot. Remember that he too is 2:1 against to make a pair, so get in there with as many high cards as possible. And him cold calling should reduce his hand range to something at least somewhat readable, so you'll know that when a flop comes 742r that he's likely chasing overcards, but when the flop is Jc8c9s you should probably bail with A6o when he shows aggression.

3) Post-Flop

With loose blinds play standard protected pot poker, pump when you have equity and don't be shy to take cards off when you don't. No sense in trying to shove around 3 players that aren't going anywhere when your JTs flopped a gutshot draw with undercards to the flop. The pot will be plenty big most of the time to take one off if you have as little as an overcard and a couple backdoor draws, so use the pot size and position to your advantage.

With the tight blinds scenario, and HU w/ the Sponge, check-raise the turn a lot. Depending on how reliably he'll bet the turn when you check, you can be check-raising with as little as ace-high sometimes (I personally would do this rarely, only when I have a good kicker and the board is very friendly). This will piss him off and allow you to "extract the max" with UI overcards, as odd as that concept sounds (since we're usually bent on protecting those same overs).

Post-flop the best idea is to check-raise a lot when you hit to punish his tendencies the most, but don't be shy of betting the whole way if the board looks friendly.

River play is a different beast altogether, and I think this is pretty much sponge specific, as I haven't seen a dominating trend in how these guys play the river. Some will bluff fairly frequently, others rarely. River is probably the most opponent specific street to play.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a sponge though, your attempts to buy the button will fail 90% of the time. And QJo out of position doesn't have much showdown value. Is this a situation where it might be reasonable to open limp?

[/ QUOTE ]

since the sponge is going to play pretty much irrespective of what you do, why are you focusing on him? the variable seems to be the blinds. I think u want to consider the liklihood its 3 or 4 way if you raise, and then decide if you would rather play headup, 3 way or 4-way, assuming you can reasonably contol these outcomes with either a limp or a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking as well -- and I think I'd rather play my JTs or QJo against three or four others than HU against some doofus coldcalling with 44 or K7o that auto-calls any flop bet.

[Nate tha' Great]

If the guy causes this much heartache then just switch tables.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy causes this much heartache then just switch tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is so weak coming from a varsity letterman.

[donger]

Having this clown on your right is also nice if there's other TA-As downstream from you. It will keep them a little more honest in attacking your BB since the sponge will be cold-calling from the SB > 50%

[StellarWind]

You have neglected the crucial first step in analyzing this problem or any problem involving strategy against a bad player.

You obviously think the sponge is a poor player and that you should be able to make money off him. Why?

I'm serious. Sit down and figure out exactly what the sponge is doing wrong and why his plays are wrong. Preferably write it out and post it. Once you do this it should be clear enough how to exploit his mistakes.

But if you do not truly understand why he is a bad player you will never get anyplace trying to refute him.

I'll start:

1. He coldcalls preflop with weak hands that don't satisfy the gap principle. He incurs immediate negative EV that is distributed to the PFR and the blinds in proportion to their respective pot equities.

Remedy: You cannot make major adjustments preflop because you cannot play against a single opponent; the blinds are still part of the game. But fear that you will frequently be called by a much worse hand is hardly a reason to stop making your normal raises. You definitely don't want to start limping because you and the sponge both limping make a fat target for the blinds. They will raise you whenever they have a good hand and steal cheap flops when they don't.

2. He calls the flop with inadequate values. This results in more negative EV that is immediately transferred to the best hand and the strong draws.

Remedy: Value bet the flop ruthlessly but don't bluff or semibluff very much because you lack bluff equity. Checkcall more unmade hands with outs. Checkfold more hands without adequate prospects.

3. He bluff bets behind on the turn too often. Yet another negative EV that accrues to the good hands.

3A. He calls turn checkraises with bluff holdings (assuming this is true). More negative EV.

Remedy: Checkraise the turn for value more often. Note that we are not trying to change the way he plays--that's fortunately very hard to do online--we are just trying to make some money off his standard mistakes.

Remedy: Checkcall weak made hands more often on the turn. Why bet-fold hands when he will bet them for you without you risking a raise? This is especially useful if you fear a checkraise from the blinds.

Remedy: Checkcall draws more often on the turn. Why risk being raised when you lack bluff equity?

These remedies need to be tailored to match the sponge's willingness to call the turn. For example, if he folds a fair amount you should keep betting good draws with no showdown value. But the advice to checkcall weak made hands acquires extra importance if he bets worthless hands he won't call with.

Now consider the most important remedy of all:

Remedy: *** Stop Folding the Best Hand for One Bet ***

Real sponges have existed for hundreds of millions of years because they have a simple plan and it works for them. Poker sponges also have a simple plan. It doesn't matter how many loose actions they take if you fold the best hand on the big streets. They may not go extinct if you stop folding hands with showdown value against them heads up, but they will lose a lot of money.

Finally you need to accept that the sponge is not quite as bad a player as a true calling station. Bluffing at weakness is a step in the right direction compared to only betting strong hands. Be prepared to accept a little less profit. You'll still need an armored car for your profits of course, but a somewhat smaller one will do.

[MecosKing]

Stellar--

Thats a great and well thought out post re: beating the sponge. I, as well as many TAGgish players, struggle with being to the left of the 'sponge' as he has been deemed. I always just thought of him as a LAG masquerading as a LAP, and he is a serious problem when he's got position on you, if you are a TAGgish player.

I have had to make a LOT of adjustments for players like him. Consider this proposition: Sponges are the answer to TAGs- this is why i think we are seeing alot more of them around in the 10-20s...because lately, the 10-20s have alot more TAGs in them, so the answer to TAGs has evolved-- and the sponge is him. Mind you, TAGs are the only players that sponges can beat- a good LAG will scare/beat him into submission, a rock will play hands sufficiently better then his that he will beat him consistently, and most average players will probably even out against him or show a little profit, depending on if he or the sponge is running well or not. TAGs on the other hand, have a major problem with sponges because of thier high PFR and PFA, thier attempts to isolate with less than premium holdings, combined with the fact that when all is said and done they are still on the tight side, so they hate giving up two big bets with UI paint cards on a board of 478810 to keep the sponge honest.

Now there are a few conclusions i have come to re: beating the sponge. [I actually posted about this problem earlier]

The first is that the problem of losing to the sponge has alot to do with running bad- When none of your nice holdings ever hit, you will lose alot to the sponge. However, when they do start hitting, you will devastate him. The sponges strategy pretty much requires that the TAG to his left is whiffing most of his flops, and is not having hands that are worth calling with. Now I admit, this has happened to me alot, and there have been times where a sponge has drained me for a good 20 BB's, since i never hit, and the few precious times i did, he managed to bad-beat me out of the pot. However, in other sessions, i have trampled all over sponges, because my big hands hit, and the sponge is always there to payoff, Cold calling against AA with 89o, flopping an 8, getting CR'ed on the turn and paying off the river, and such.

LIMPING AND BLUFFING

In addition to my theory that much of the problems we face in beating the sponge stem from missing an inordinate amount of our hands, i also think that limping with decent hands that we might otherwise raise from first in is not a bad idea- LIke JQs, KJo, KTs, A9o, etc.

The reason for this is FIRST, that you STILL have cards that are better than the ones others have, most likely, and so theres no reason not to be in the pot- obviously youd prefer to have it HU and not let anyone in, but having a 3 way pot with JQ is not a disaster...SECONDLY, it will allow you to BLUFF MORE EFFECTIVELY against the sponge, because, unless the sponge has figured out what you are doing, he is going to be much more likely to give you credit for a hand if you limp then come to life on the flop, as opposed to raising PF, then firing at a flop of 448. For example, lets say you limp with JTs, the spong limps behind, the SB mucks and the BB checks, and the flop comes 894. If the sponge has A4o, or Q4s (which he very well might have, considering the way he plays) then you are alot more likely to be able to take the pot from him by betting your hand than you would be if you raised PF then did the same. What the sponge loves to do is sherriff / make moves on players that raise PF - but i assure you, the sponge is much less likely than his brother, the calling station, to call bottom pair down through the river if you limped, then bet, than if you raised preflop, then bet. Oftentimes, a bluff that WOULD NOT have worked had you raised PF will all of a sudden work when you limp.

MIXING UP YOUR PLAY

CENTRAL to the sponges game is a predictable opponent. This is how the sponge wins. Youll notice pretty often that when you raise with AK and flop AT5 or KQ8, the sponge will often just muck his hand and youll be pissed because he didnt pay you off since the board came scary. Thats because he knows that your TAGgish, and that when you raise and then As Ks and Qs come on the board, theres a good chance youve got a hand your willing to showdown, and so he simply folds and waits for the next time you raise and the board comes 469, then tries to gain back the bets he lost on the previous hand.

What i do to counter this, and i know this is pretty contra what people preach here, is that i limp once in awhile with a big hand (like AQs) and raise once in awhile with speculative hands (like 89s). This throws the sponges game off alot, because he cant always make moves on you on somewhat raggy boards, and he cant always assume that big paint hasnt hit you just because you represented weakness preflop. Since the ONLY way the sponge can EVER make up for the -EV of his preflop cold calling and on-the-flop-peeling is to exploit his position, and the predictability of his TAGgish opponents, once he loses his read on the opposition, he is absolutely doomed to lose, and lose badly.

I understand that limping is frowned upon in general here, but the fact of the matter is that these guys are popping up more and more often in the 10-20 games, and they are beating winning players out of some cash, and definitely decreasing the overall winrate of the TAG's who used to dominate the tables- and they gotta be dealt with!

Anyways, im sure theres more, but thats my 2 cents.