"Solid" 5-10 player getting killed at 10-20, please help

[magic_man]

While I wait to enter grad school, I've been playing the party 5-10 6max almost exclusively this year. A few times in the past I have tried the 10-20, with poor results. I had a good month in April, and really changed my play a lot from some of the suggestions here, and after realizing that the rakeback at 10-20 would be significantly greater, I decided to take a shot at it in May. The results have been pretty disastrous.

Below are my all-time 5-10 stats:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>TotalHands VPIP VPIPSB FoldedSBtoSteal FoldedBBtoSteal Att.toSteal W$WSF WentToSD W$SD PFR BB/100
138917 19.97 32.83 83.23 68.25 26.14 39.19 33.58 54.61 13.35 1.31 </pre><hr />

And here are my 10-20 stats:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>TotalHands VPIP VPIPSB FoldedSBtoSteal FoldedBBtoSteal Att.toSteal W$WSF WentToSD W$SD PFR BB/100
31207 21.13 32.49 80.84 67.60 28.82 40.26 34.53 51.39 14.34 -1.75 </pre><hr />


Now, I know a lot of you are going to see leaks in the 5-10 stats and say "Stick to 5-10 until you are better." With that in mind, I'll post my stats starting in April, when I started trying to increase my VPIP and PFR as per the suggestions here.

Starting April 1st:

5-10:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>TotalHands VPIP VPIPSB FoldedSBtoSteal FoldedBBtoSteal Att.toSteal W$WSF WentToSD W$SD PFR BB/100
47947 22.42 34.12 81.87 65.24 30.68 40.55 35.37 53.35 15.79 1.93 </pre><hr />

You can see that in April I started playing more hands by defending more and stealing more, raising more preflop, winning more on the flop w/ increased aggression, and seeing showdowns more often. I thought I had a good grip on the necessary play style for the 5-10 6-max, so I thought I would be a decent (but presumably smaller, BB-wise) winner at the 10-20. Not so...


10-20:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>TotalHands VPIP VPIPSB FoldedSBtoSteal FoldedBBtoSteal Att.toSteal W$WSF WentToSD W$SD PFR BB/100
12950 22.83 35.50 79.60 64.89 32.60 41.53 35.05 49.88 16.05 -1.57 </pre><hr />


If I was only winning 1BB/100, there would be about a 3.50% chance of this happening "normally." At a higher win rate it's even lower, and for all 31k hands it's very small (about 1/500). So, small sample size aside, does anyone have any advice? What am I missing here? Is it actually possible that I'm a decent winner at 5-10 and with only tiny changes in stats, a losing player at 10-20? I don't think that's the case, so what's going on? Thanks for your help.

Humbly,
Magic_Man

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
FoldedSBtoSteal FoldedBBtoSteal Att.toSteal

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, from the limited info you gave these stands out as quite anomalous (too low, too high, too low IMO).

[ QUOTE ]
WentToSD W$SD

[/ QUOTE ]

these recent numbers for 10-20 suggests you are running poorly, but this is all unfounded and vague speculation based on vastly incomplete information.

[aslowjoe]

with a winrate under 2 why are you moving up? Rakeback is gravy and should not factor into moving up in limits.

[ISF]

I really dont think any response to a stats post is going to help you out here. I have almost identical stats, except I defend the BB (55) a little more, and go to show down slightly more 36%, but one could certainly beat either game for a significant win rate with play that would result in your stats.
I think proper turn and especially river play are where the money is made in these games and you need to post, review hands to improve this aspect of your game.

[magic_man]

I play 40k hands/month, so the extra rakeback alone is worth over $500/month. I didn't expect to actually be losing, so I thought even if I could win at the 5-10 rate (which I hoped to do better than), I'd be pulling in at least an extra $6k/year. Really though, I thought I had a good grip on things and enough BR to move up, so I decided to give it a try.

~Magic_Man

[B00T]

40k hands of 5-10 6max alone should net you at least $2500 in rakeback MINIMUM. I am not sure if you made a mistake in your post, but if thats your going rate, I'd highly reccomend getting a new deal.

[magic_man]

I guess one of my main points is that I'm playing the 10-20 fairly similarly to my play in the 5-10 for now. I'm just a teensy bit looser and more aggressive. I'm wondering whether a winning 5-10 style can actually be a losing 10-20 style, or whether I'm the lucky 1 out of 500.

~Magic_Man

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
40k hands of 5-10 6max alone should net you at least $2500 in rakeback MINIMUM. I am not sure if you made a mistake in your post, but if thats your going rate, I'd highly reccomend getting a new deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? At 25% I figure the 5-10 is around 5.3c/hand, which works out to $2120/month. Even at 30% it's just barely $2500. Are you saying that it should be much more than 30%??

At any rate, that's not what I meant. The rakeback is $500 extra/month.

[ISF]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering whether a winning 5-10 style can actually be a losing 10-20 style

[/ QUOTE ]
I am saying that there is no way to figure this out from a stats post. The biggest difference between 5/10 and 10/20 players it that 10/20 players play much better on the river, and how you adapt to this is not measurable via stats, and is much more important then weather or not your ASB is 32 or 35.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess one of my main points is that I'm playing the 10-20 fairly similarly to my play in the 5-10 for now. I'm just a teensy bit looser and more aggressive. I'm wondering whether a winning 5-10 style can actually be a losing 10-20 style, or whether I'm the lucky 1 out of 500.

~Magic_Man

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd consider you a marginal winner at 5/10. And yes I'd guess that a marginal winner at 5/10 would be a loser at 10/20. Your more recent stats look much better than your overall though.

Krishan

[jfresh]

i am in a similar situation as you, i have been beating 5/10 for a while now, and taken shots at 10/20. past few times has been pretty disastorous. i've taken a ton of bad beats (running kind of bad) but i do feel a 5/10 game is not gonna work at 10/20. you really have to adapt your game to the agressiveness of 10/20... whether its to raise your draws more, raise you middle pair more, go to showdown more... i don't know yet. but i'm pretty sure you have to change your game a lot to become a solid 10/20 player...

[Alobar]

you are way to tight at 5/10.

Also I would suspect your WR will drop about .5 from the move from 5/10 to 10/20 which puts you under 1BB/100, which is going to cause alot of varience, so 10/20 which is already alot swingier, is going to be even more so.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess one of my main points is that I'm playing the 10-20 fairly similarly to my play in the 5-10 for now. I'm just a teensy bit looser and more aggressive. I'm wondering whether a winning 5-10 style can actually be a losing 10-20 style, or whether I'm the lucky 1 out of 500.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've been a significant winner over ~90k hands at 5/10. i've taken like 5 shots at 10/20 - about 37k hands - and my winrate is -1.51BB/100. so no, you aren't the only one.

i honestly feel like i run bad every time i give it a shot, but i don't know. it's extremely frustrating.

[tolbiny]

You should definately be getting more than 25% on party skins if you are playing 40k+ hands a month.