Flop 3-bet : semi-bluff or value bet?

[Ulysses]

I get a table change and now I'm in a much better 15-30 game. It's still relatively tight and quite aggressive, but much less tricky and a couple of looser players. No idiots, but lots of money-making opportunity.

I get 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif in BB. 5 of us see the flop.

Flop 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I bet. MP caller. Cutoff raises. This means she has a 10 or club draw. SB calls. I 3-bet. MP folds. Cutoff calls. SB calls.

Turn A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

This either hit someone or didn't. What now? Do I follow through here?

[astroglide]

you put yourself in this position, so you figure it out /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

3betting draws in the worst position 3-ways is not the best plan

[nykenny]

I agree with astroglide, why in the world would you want to 3 bet with a straight draw with all that many people and a flush draw present? I lean toward check calling in this case in a multi-way pot.

Leading the turn??? I would never do.

again, my opinion, not an advise.

[budman]

I would have check-called the flop. You are in bad position and are probably up against a flush draw, which negates two of your outs.

However, having three bet the flop, I think you are obligated to bet out as long as a club doesn't show.

Don't take your foot off the gas and hope that your opponents miss their draws or have weak pairs that they will dump.

[M.B.E.]

budman wrote:
"<font color="purple">I would have check-called the flop. You are in bad position and are probably up against a flush draw, which negates two of your outs.</font color>"

Do others agree that Ulysses was "probably" up against a flush draw at the moment he saw the flop? Recall that he was in the BB with 9d-8d, and four others saw the flop with no raise. Of course there's a chance someone has a club draw but isn't it closer to 1/5 than 1/2?

I raise this point because it's pretty common for posters to assume in problems like this (multiway hands with two suited cards on the flop) that at least one opponent has a flush draw. That may be a valid assumption if lots of people call a bet or two on the flop, but I don't know whether it's valid before any action.

This point is key to proper play on the hand Ulysses posted.

[mikelow]

Follow up with a bet. You might win with another bet on the river. You have six clean outs also.

[John Gaspar]

In your current position, I think you have to bet and continue to represent a big hand, Ax clubs. What I would consider is how likely is it that it will be raised behind by the cutoff if she now picked up A's to go with the flush draw and secondly if they both call,are you prepared to bet the river as a bluff if a complete blank comes on the river. If it is more likely that she would raise an improved hand or an A, then I think betting is a mistake and that you're better off check calling with 6 outs as your getting a little over 6-1 on your call.

I wouldn't have 3 bet the flop with only 6 clean outs, but I may be weak tight. The only reason I would 3 bet the flop is if I was prepared to bet if the 3rd club came on the turn representing the big flush draw that got there along with betting the made straight obviously.

[Tommy Angelo]

Bet the turn for sure. Some bets come in pairs, this brings that. Like if I reraise preflop with 22 and it's headup with me last and the flop comes AKQ and he checks, then I'm betting, in the hope that he'll muck a pocket pair. But if he limped BTF, and I limped behind, and he checked the AKQ flop, I'd probably just check and never bluff or call this hand.

Same with your hand. I would never be in your spot, because reraising with nine-high out of position in multiway pots is something that's not in my play book. But if it was, and now we're at the turn, and I've still got my nine-high, I'd bet out.

Tommy

[Ulysses]

A the time, I thought this was a reasonable move. Doesn't look like anyone else thinks so. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

My thought process was simple. I don't think a 9 high is going to be good. So, I can call here and the only way I can win is to hit one of my 6 (possibly 8) outs or catch runner runner. Or, I can invest one more SB to represent a monster and possibly take it down with a turn and river bet if nobody improves.

I bet the turn as planned and both folded.

Did my plan make any sense at all or was I smoking crack?

[M.B.E.]

I didn't say it in my first response, but I thought your 3-betting the flop was fine. I wouldn't necessarily make that play routinely, however. Notice that your flop 3-bet drove out someone who had already called one bet. He may well have held an ace.

An open-ender on the flop is a good hand in a multiway pot, even with two suited cards on board. Lots of people make the mistake of thinking that when two suited cards flop, someone must have a flush draw, but that's wrong. There were lots of reasonable ways to play this flop including check-raising, bet-calling, and bet-raising. (Check-calling the flop usually would not be a good play.)

On the turn, I would have been inclined to check when the ace came. The reasons are first, if no one has an ace they might well check it around, giving you a free card (thinking that you have a good ten). Second, if someone does have an ace and you bet out, they'll probably raise--and you don't want to put in two bets on the turn with a draw. On the other hand, if you're against passive players who will bet an ace if you check but just call with an ace if you bet, then betting would be better because of the possibility that everyone will fold.

[Ulysses]

On the other hand, if you're against passive players who will bet an ace if you check but just call with an ace if you bet, then betting would be better because of the possibility that everyone will fold.

In general, I agree with your thoughts re: the turn. Here's my specific reasoning at the time:

At this table, after my flop 3-bet, only two hands would be highly likely to raise me here. AcXc and AT. Of course they may well be out there, but maybe not...

Many more hands could fold to a turn bet. Also, weak hands that might call a turn bet and fold to a river bet if they improved might call the river if the turn was checked through or I showed any weakness there.

Taking all that into account, I thought betting into the Ace was a reasonable risk.