So my mid-end game sucks

[EverettKings]

Well, I don't seem to have any problem accumulating chips in the early stages of my STTs, yet I have been busting an uncanny chunk of the time in the pre-bubble time, i.e. 5 handed with 50/100 or 100/200 ish blinds.

My problem is dealing with a semi-short stack and marginal hands. Anyway, been having trouble with spots like these:

$33s on Party


Group A:
Blinds juuuust the wrong size....


1)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1165)
SB (t1770)
BB (t1030)
UTG (t1185)
Hero (t1195)
CO (t1655)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.
I raised to t275 and all folded. BB (literally) hadn't played a hand yet, or I probably would have mucked this.



2)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1615)
UTG (t1470)
MP (t1205)
CO (t1010)
Hero (t1145)
SB (t1555)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font> I fold.
This kind of spot really bugs me, a hand like this in LP with 12ish BBs. I used to make it t275 or t300 here, but it's overwhelmingly likely that someone will only push over the top or fold (i.e. not just call). If they push I probably have to fold, in which case my cards don't matter (might as well be 27o). So do I fold, push, limp, or raise/call with a weird stack and marginal hand like this?



3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t275</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t800</font>
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly.



4)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1105)
Hero (t2960)
SB (t1180)
BB (t1560)
UTG (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds. I folded.
Similar to the A9o/KTo spots.




Group B
Am I too short?

5)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1765)
Button (t1320)
SB (t1105)
BB (t1010)
Hero (t1295)
MP (t1505)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
I fold. Blinds a'comin, good amount of FE. Do I go now?



6)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1465)
SB (t1420)
BB (t1905)
UTG (t710)
Hero (t995)
CO (t1505)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold
How about now? I folded.



7)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1465)
Button (t1320)
SB (t2005)
BB (t710)
Hero (t995)
MP (t1505)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Or now? I folded.

8)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1640)
Hero (t1525)
Button (t2210)
SB (t1635)
BB (t990)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold</font>
Can I go yet? I folded.

9)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1640)
Hero (t1525)
MP (t2210)
Button (t2235)
SB (t390)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1525 (All-In)</font>
Finally, go time. SB puts in his last 190 and BB calls with A8o, and that was that. It just seems that if I push these marginal hands, I get looked up by hands like this too often. I also am not very good at sucking out.



Miscellaneous

10)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1465)
MP (t1620)
CO (t1905)
Button (t410)
Hero (t795)
BB (t1805)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t410 (All-In)</font>. I push. Pretty good pot odds, figured I was vs a hand like Ace-medium, and I was running out of fold equity fast. Or did I have enough to pass here?





So what it comes down to...

Is that these are often the best spots that I'm presented with at this point. Most of these situations I'm just one of many semi-short stacks but I can't just pray for a nice hand to come along. I feel like I'm running out of time but I can't find a good spot. Maybe I'm not patient enough. Maybe I don't pick the right spots.

The other situation is where I have 10-15 BBs and an all in with a marginal hand is such an overbet that it's only going to bite me in the ass. But I could use some blinds and I haven't seen any legit hands... grrrr

This has really been frustrating me. I've got too much data for this to not be a leak in my game. I really hope someone out there can look and say "aha! You suck for reasons X, Y, and Z." At least then I can make some progress.

Thanks to any still reading, I would love your input.

-Kings

[lastchance]

Hero raises KTo with 4 active players behind him, but folds A9 and K8 with only 2 active players behind him? Those are easy raises, IMHO. I raise both, and I probably push A9 all-in. And if everyone folds, that's awesome. That's what you want more than calling. You don't like calls, you like folds. You like picking up t150 for nothing.

You say you have good amount of FE from UTG 6-handed. That's almost always wrong. I fold T8o easy, I fold 86... QT is a hard decision, but with 5 active players still behind me, I fold. K3 is pretty hard as well, only 3 active players behind you, and from button this is a push, but from CO I make the laydown.

As for the final hand, you've got 4x BB. That's almost nothing. If BB's got A8, he's got A8. Deal.

And I probably lay down K3o. Just not going to be a heavy favorite over 70% of all hands, and with BB behind you. Actually, that sucks. With 4x BB again, I push as well.

[EverettKings]

Thats just it. Some of those were easy mucks, but the A9o and K8o button hands FELT like easy raises. So what do I do? Push? Raise to 300? In BOTH cases either I or the blinds had about 10-12 BBs. If I raise, I'll either see a push and I must fold, or I'll take the blinds. So like I said, I might as well have rags with that line. So should I push A9o and fold K8o, push both, fold both, what? It's just a weird number of BBs to have...

-Kings

[lastchance]

I push A9o, raise 3x BB with K8o. Nothing wrong with shoving all-in with 12x BB, but BB has 15x BB with K8o. Either's better than folding.

And remember, you WANT to take down the blinds. You're acting like taking down the blinds isn't important. It is. You want those blinds, picking up t150 for free is the entire point of L4 and above.

[EverettKings]

Oh I sure as hell want to take down the blinds, otherwise why would I bother contemplating such garbage as K8o?

The problem is that to gain 150, I have to risk something. Sometimes my entire stack is needed, sometimes not. Sometimes I can bail on a steal attempt without putting all my money in. Sometimes I can't. I'm just having issues sorting out those categories.

Reflecting on this, I think I would benefit from trying to play push/fold poker in those spots. I'm worrying too much about "getting away" and should just shove it or shut up. Some suck out training couldn't hurt: know any good books?

Theres still plenty of analysis to be had on the topic. If youre completely and utterly card dead and running desperately out of time, you obviously shove any two at some point. You also are appearing tight, if anyone is paying attention, which can work to your advantage.

And in the 12 BB situation on the button, what hands would you push? Raise? Fold? I'll throw out a range and see what people think, assuming regular $33 on party with SB and BB having the same stack you do.

Push: A8+, KJ+, 55+, KTs, QJs
Raise: Axs, A5-A7, K7-KT, QJo, QT, Q9s, QQ-AA
Fold: The rest

[Taraz]

Can we get some more replies to this post? I have the exact same questions, I just can't decide when to pull the trigger when it's getting down to it and my best cards seem to be K5o. Good questions Everett. (I push that A9o by the way . . .)

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
2)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

BB (t1615)
UTG (t1470)
MP (t1205)
CO (t1010)
Hero (t1145)
SB (t1555)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, A.
3 folds I fold.
This kind of spot really bugs me, a hand like this in LP with 12ish BBs. I used to make it t275 or t300 here, but it's overwhelmingly likely that someone will only push over the top or fold (i.e. not just call). If they push I probably have to fold, in which case my cards don't matter (might as well be 27o). So do I fold, push, limp, or



[/ QUOTE ]


Pushing is better than folding here. Even though it seems like the risk/reward is bad, you simply have to push these edges once the blinds are so high. The edge is quite signifigant here actually.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5, 5.
1 fold, Hero raises to t275, Button raises to t800
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly

[/ QUOTE ]


Seems totally fine. If I was in your spot, the action would have likely went the same. I would usually open raise from 250-350, with the lower range being more common.

[Mammux]

I recommend that you play with eastbay's tool.

I love saying that!

http://sitngo-analyzer.com/

I think what you will discover is that in late position, when it's folded to you, you need to lower your hand requirements a lot.

-Magnus

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you will discover is that in late position, when it's folded to you, you need to lower your hand requirements a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? That sounds made up.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5, 5.
1 fold, Hero raises to t275, Button raises to t800
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly

[/ QUOTE ]


Seems totally fine. If I was in your spot, the action would have likely went the same. I would usually open raise from 250-350, with the lower range being more common.

[/ QUOTE ]
if I did the math right then you have odds to call this push if villain is on TT+,AQ+

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

8)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1640)
Hero (t1525)
Button (t2210)
SB (t1635)
BB (t990)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3, K.
1 fold
Can I go yet? I folded.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is very marginal and highly dependent on your read on the BB. In general I am folding this though unless the BB is really tight.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:
3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5, 5.
1 fold, Hero raises to t275, Button raises to t800
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly




Seems totally fine. If I was in your spot, the action would have likely went the same. I would usually open raise from 250-350, with the lower range being more common.


if I did the math right then you have odds to call this push if villain is on TT+,AQ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that he wasnt exactly all in, as he has like 150 more chips. So its really a 1050 raise, not 800. I think that makes it a clear fold to the reraise. The first-to-act decisions are the ones that most interest me though, like how should I have raised, if at all, in the first place?

-Kings

[Mammux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think what you will discover is that in late position, when it's folded to you, you need to lower your hand requirements a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? That sounds made up.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not. I think you are underestimating the importance of position with high blinds near the bubble. Some of your early position hands are very easy folds and some of your late position hands are easy pushes. Curtain's comments are spot on regarding the hands you've posted, but for a more general understanding of these situations, go buy eastbay's tool.

By the way I might push 55 some of the time. By pushing, you often represent a medium pocket pair like 99 or TT, so most of the time you will be slightly ahead when you're called, because 66-99 is likely to fold, while at least 88 or 99 might go all-in if you go for a normal raise. Depends on reads and image, of course.

-Magnus

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
Reflecting on this, I think I would benefit from trying to play push/fold poker in those spots. I'm worrying too much about "getting away" and should just shove it or shut up. Some suck out training couldn't hurt: know any good books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking over the hands you posted, I think this is a big key. People are stupid and will make stupid calls for big chunks of their chips. They are less likely to make stupid calls for ALL of their chips. I think that when the blinds get high and there are still a lot of people left, you need to think about pushing instead of 3x raises, even if you have 12BB or 13BB. People are just too likely to call in the 33s, and you really, really don't want that.

[EverettKings]

I was joking. I understand the importance of pushing more hands in position. I also am familiar with eastbay's program but I can do those calculations myself. The trick is putting them on the correct range of calling hands, which is hard.

It's great if I pick up ATs on the button or 88 or some "nice" steal hand, but when my cards are running terrible and K5o comes and goes, I often am not sure when I'm "desperate" enough to just start shoving the little crap that I get. Like the QTo hand (#7). The blinds were about to eat me alive, so even if pushing is marginal or slightly -EV, folding could be even more harmful. Understand my dilemma?

I do agree that I should outright push more, as people's ranges, especially 5-6 way, will be suprisingly tight when all their chips are at risk. But how tight do you think they will be? That's a crucial question to answer before I can figure out what hands I can reasonably push with for 10-15 BBs on the button/CO.

-Kings

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:
3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5, 5.
1 fold, Hero raises to t275, Button raises to t800
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly




Seems totally fine. If I was in your spot, the action would have likely went the same. I would usually open raise from 250-350, with the lower range being more common.


if I did the math right then you have odds to call this push if villain is on TT+,AQ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that he wasnt exactly all in, as he has like 150 more chips. So its really a 1050 raise, not 800. I think that makes it a clear fold to the reraise. The first-to-act decisions are the ones that most interest me though, like how should I have raised, if at all, in the first place?

-Kings

[/ QUOTE ]
hero must put in 805 chips to win 2,310
805/2310=.348
if villain is holding 1010+,AQ+ hero will have a .371 win rate

this is marginal, but if the villain is looser the gap widens.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]

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3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter

UTG (t1305)
Hero (t2960)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5, 5.
1 fold, Hero raises to t275, Button raises to t800
I fold. Looking for comments on first action mostly



[/ QUOTE ]


Seems totally fine. If I was in your spot, the action would have likely went the same. I would usually open raise from 250-350, with the lower range being more common.


[/ QUOTE ]

if I did the math right then you have odds to call this push if villain is on TT+,AQ+



[/ QUOTE ]

Note that he wasnt exactly all in, as he has like 150 more chips. So its really a 1050 raise, not 800. I think that makes it a clear fold to the reraise. The first-to-act decisions are the ones that most interest me though, like how should I have raised, if at all, in the first place?

-Kings



[/ QUOTE ]
hero must put in 805 chips to win 2,310
805/2310=.348
if villain is holding 1010+,AQ+ hero will have a .371 win rate

this is marginal, but if the villain is looser the gap widens.

[/ QUOTE ]

ChipEV wise it's close, but if I call and lose this I lose all bullying power. There's no reason to butt heads with another guy in a marginal EV situation if I can just fold and steal later.

[zambonidrivr]

harrington on holdem is a good book

[nokona13]

Curtains, especially at high levels where you play and people probably have some notes on you, does making this kind of play not encourage a push with any two from the BB? Maybe you're raising your premium hands the same way, but the OP is talking about pushing all strong hands but QQ-AA, meaning when he raises with 20+BB and the blinds have 12+BB, he's like 85% to fold to a push from the blinds, making that a hugely +EV play for the blinds. What's your thought on this?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains, especially at high levels where you play and people probably have some notes on you, does making this kind of play not encourage a push with any two from the BB? Maybe you're raising your premium hands the same way, but the OP is talking about pushing all strong hands but QQ-AA, meaning when he raises with 20+BB and the blinds have 12+BB, he's like 85% to fold to a push from the blinds, making that a hugely +EV play for the blinds. What's your thought on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play like robot, I might just open allin in this spot. 55 is not the type of hand where I want to convince KJs to come along for the ride. Meanwhile pushing is at least slightly +EV even if called by all better hands. I admit I'm not happy about it though... folding is probably not terrible either and I might choose that depending on how I felt (although honestly would never fold in this exact scenario).

Sometimes I play differently while actualy at the table than when reading a HH. It makes me sick to fold actually with 3000 chips and 55 on the cutoff! It's just unpleasant to make a normal raise because I know that I probably have to call a reraise, but it's really unpleasant to do so, and I may have encouraged someone to play back at me with a hand I don't want to gamble against.

(btw I probably would fold to a reraise, because once I lose this hand, I'm no longer in prime position to dominate the table when the blinds go up on the bubble.)

Anyway to sum it all up I've decided that I will push preflop, but I'm not very confident about it.