Are You Making This Flop Call? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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mmbt0ne

05-23-2005, 05:22 PM

So I'm experimenting with some 6 and 8 tabling, which means I'm back at the .50/1 tables from time to time. I noticed a table with an $18 avg. pot, and decided I'd go ahead and get on a waiting list, which I don't do much at .50/1. I'm sure a few of you noticed this table too, and were probably sitting there. Anyway, I watched a few hands while I was playing and figured out who was LAGging it up here. This is the first hand I played, no real questions here.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 (DonkDonk) raises, Hero (poster) 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, MP3 (DonkDonk) calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, DonkDonk raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 caps, DonkDonk calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (18.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, DonkDonk calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 3-bets, DonkDonk calls, Hero caps, BB calls, MP2 calls, DonkDonk calls.

River: (34.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, DonkDonk bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls, DonkDonk calls.

Final Pot: 42.25 BB
Hero shows [ Qd, Qh ] a full house, Queens full of fours.
BB doesn't show [ Ah, 8d ] two pairs, eights and fours.
MP2 doesn't show [ 7h, 7c ] two pairs, sevens and fours.
DonkDonk doesn't show [ 6s, 5d ] two pairs, fives and fours.

Nice table, huh? Now, I continue to bet and raise a lot, and am probably looking rather laggish myself to some of the other people at the table, but I'm not paying off when I'm beat. This is a big thing to look for when you're at a table with crazies. The good players will bet, raise, and isolate, but know when to drop their hands against other players. The LAGs will balls out to the end.

Anyway, this hand comes up a little while later:

MP1 seems like a reasonable player so far. He certainly knows DonkDonk is just that. I might be a little laggy to him.
DonkDonk is 82/60/2 or so
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, Button (DonkDonk) 3-bets, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP1 caps, Button (DonkDonk) calls, Hero calls.

Questionable? Eh, maybe. If UTG had called like he was supposed to it wouldn't look so bad. Against this button though with 2 people already in the pot, I can't lay it down I don't think.

Flop: (15 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, DonkDonk calls, Hero ...

Yes. No. Reasons.
I was talking to someone else about this, and we had pretty different opinions.

thesharpie

05-23-2005, 05:28 PM

At first I thought the 2 was a 3. The flop call is fine, anyway.

Edit: Reason is implied odds!

DMBFan23

05-23-2005, 05:28 PM

what should you have done, fold??? eff that. well played. folding to the cap would have been uber uber uber bad.

EDIT: oh crap there's another hand. it seems close, but you're closing the action so yeah peel if you feel.

aK13

05-23-2005, 05:31 PM

In hand 1, I'm calling the turn even if I miss...odds are gigantic to hit my set. In hand 2, I also call because of odds.

Yako

05-23-2005, 05:32 PM

I think he means on the flop.
You're getting 16:1, so a call would be good here. The only problem that MIGHT push me to folding is that the 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is somewhat tainted. Very strong redraw against it. But seeing all the action pf, I don't think it's very likely that donkster or the other guy are gonna hit a flush.

droolie

05-23-2005, 05:34 PM

Hand i is goot.

Hand ii is a very marginal flop call. You are closing the action and might be ahead. You have odds to draw to two outs (with implieds) but the only thing that makes it close is one of your outs is a three flush so it's kinds dirty. I call because when it's close and I'm bored I like to gambool over folding.

DMBFan23

05-23-2005, 05:37 PM

yeah I was thinking of the flop cap in hand 1.

toss

05-23-2005, 05:38 PM

I'd like that call PF a lot more if MP1 was isolating the Donkdonk instead of raising.

I'd feel a lot better continue on this flop is you had the 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I'd lead a non A-J turn.

toss

05-23-2005, 05:40 PM

But theres a good chance were ahead. MP1 may have overcards (a lot more likely if he was isolating the donk) and the donk would probably have raised MP1 if he held any piece of the board.

mmbt0ne

05-23-2005, 05:45 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
Hand ii is a very marginal flop call. You are closing the action and might be ahead. You have odds to draw to two outs (with implieds) but the only thing that makes it close is one of your outs is a three flush so it's kinds dirty. I call because when it's close and I'm bored I like to gambool over folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've just seen DonkDonk go about a billion bets in hand 1 (including raising the flop) with a gutshot draw. He bets the river when he pairs his 5. I think the fact that he called puts me in a great situation.

He's playing 80% of his hands, plenty of those don't include 2 hearts. And as for MP, I don't know what /images/graemlins/heart.gif/images/graemlins/heart.gif hand he's capping with preflop other than AK, and maybe AQ. Add the redraws for the rare time it is tainted, and I don't think assigning 1.9 outs is being generous.

chopchoi

05-23-2005, 06:01 PM

Once you called 2 1/2 cold, calling the cap is a no-brainer. I would nevver call 2 1/2 cold from SB w/ 33 though, no matter how laggy the raiser is. At the same time, I'm trying to loosen up a bit, so if someone can provide me with a explanation as to why yhis is a good play, I'd be happy to hear it.

lies

05-23-2005, 06:14 PM

i'd call on the flop on the second hand
as a previous poster said, 1.9 outs is reasonable

mmbt0ne

05-23-2005, 07:37 PM

Well, I guess this wasn't as hard as I hoped it would be. No one really argued against it, which is good to see. I was hoping to change some minds, but I guess they don't need changing!

Anyway, here's how the hand played out after I called the flop:

Turn: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, DonkDonk calls, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, DonkDonk calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, DonkDonk calls.

River: (21 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, DonkDonk raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, DonkDonk caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 30 BB

DonkDonk has K2 and I win a lot.

Aaron W.

05-23-2005, 08:27 PM

I'm really surprised at the preflop call in hand 2. I'm not making that call with 33 even at a laggy table. I don't think the implied odds are there because you've got such a large preflop investment to make. Think about it in these terms: You're making a 1.5-2 BB investment preflop to win maybe 4-6 BB off everyone on average when you hit. Getting all 3 villains with you to the river means that you're making 12-18 BB when you hit your set. If it's profitable, it's pretty thin. You lose one villain on the flop, and you're going to struggle to show profit. I'd be fine making that call with a medium pocket pair, say 77 or so, because at that LAGfest, you've still got showdown value. 33 is not showing down here.

The flop call (for #2) is a no-brainer. The table would need to be pretty tight-passive for me to not call getting 17:1. (But the pot would never be that big at a tight-passive table... so I guess I'm always making that call).

mmbt0ne

05-23-2005, 08:32 PM

I still had BB to act behind me, as well as an EP limper. Obviously, if I had expected them both to fold I wouldn't have played the hand. If they both come along, I'm very happy to call. If only 1 of them comes along, it's a close call, but given that I have the LAG trapped between me and the preflop aggressor, I think I could make back what I need to.

Like I said, it was unfortunate that they both folded, but I certainly didn't think they would when I made my call.