Folded AA on the flop

[JDalla]

Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif in BB.
UTG limp, Button Limp, SB Limp, Hero Raises. (all call)
Flop is 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

SB check, Hero bet, UTG call, Button Call, SB check-raise.

Hero folds. (pot size 6.5 Big Bets, .5 Big Bet to call)

I figured I'm likely up against a flopped flush, or a set, as well as multiple flush draws and/or pairs. The reasoning was that there is an 75% chance I am beat now, and if not there is a huge chance of being outdrawn.

Is this the correct play?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif in BB.
UTG limp, Button Limp, SB Limp, Hero Raises. (all call)
Flop is 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

SB check, Hero bet, UTG call, Button Call, SB check-raise.

Hero folds. (pot size 6.5 Big Bets, .5 Big Bet to call)

I figured I'm likely up against a flopped flush, or a set, as well as multiple flush draws and/or pairs. The reasoning was that there is an 75% chance I am beat now, and if not there is a huge chance of being outdrawn.

Is this the correct play?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't close to the correct call. You're playing scared -- you'll get checkraised by a single high /images/graemlins/spade.gif on this flop a large portion of the time.

Rob

[mikewvp]

If I were you I would have just drawn a set then filled up on the river.

[JDalla]

I certainly wouldn't have folded if the other 2 players were not involved in the hand... but for some reason I felt that I was up against a flopped flush or a set. What if I call and then one of the other players raises again- then I am probably near drawing dead, other than runners.

That being said, it was the first time in limit that I have folded AA. Would the correct play be to raise again, hoping to force out the other players? I'm worried that if I did that another player with the nut flush draw might cap with some notion of creating better pot odds or something...

It turned out the check raiser was a complete idiot, and had J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif. He was called by the K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, who hit a Q on the turn and won the pot with top pair.

I may have been effected by a couple things: in the 10 previous hands I had picked up QQ twice and lost to 88 and 44. Also I had been reading about making big laydowns... I'm not sure if that played a roll, but if it did it is no excuse.

Would anyone else make the fold here?

[TStoneMBD]

making this fold is definitely not in my arsenal. that doesnt mean its necessarily wrong though. i would just never do it.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning was that there is an 75% chance I am beat now, and if not there is a huge chance of being outdrawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon...do you really believe this?

What limit is this? I would either 3-bet or wait to raise an offsuit turn card depending on my opponents.

[JDalla]

I guess it was just a feeling that I was beat (something I usually wouldn't go on). In the other thousands of hours I've played I have never made that fold before. (it was 10/20).

I guess I just gave the SB too much credit, as I personally would never make the play he made without a flopped flush (or possibly a set).

[jman220]

3-bet the flop, call a cap, play it from there.

[JDalla]

That sounds pretty good, with the exception being that if one if the smoothers caps it, I would probably be drawing to runners only and have to fold.

[JrJordan]

I think you're folding a bit too early for this one. I call the SB checkraise on the flop. If a nonspade hits the turn, raise SB's bet. If you 3bets on top of you, then you can start thinking about folding, not before then though.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it was just a feeling that I was beat (something I usually wouldn't go on). In the other thousands of hours I've played I have never made that fold before. (it was 10/20).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that if you've got a read, based on instincts that you're beat, you should generally go with it. Seems like it would generally be +EV if your instincts are generally correct. We don't have the information you had at the time, such as your opponents stats, their manner of play, the character of the table, etc. etc., all of which taken in their totality could have let you to a correct "gut feeling" that you were beat. Still though, you're a better man than me for being able to fold here, because I just wouldn't be able to resist 3-betting that checkraise.

[jman220]

Yeah, thats true, thats actually probably a leak in my game, overplaying the overpairs on a board like this, but if the cold-caller were to drop, or just call again (representing a draw), and the checkraiser were to cap, depending on his stats, he could be a maniac and still have the draw. What were his stats/ what was the limit? Of course, I've seen the results now, so maybe i'm just being results oriented.

[jman220]

On second thought, after reading the other posts, I like the "call the checkraise on the flop, raise the non-suit turn," line, because that definitely gives you a better idea of where you're at, and enables you to fold if 3-bet.

[JDalla]

I admit the fold is wrong, but it is still better than a call. Calling here gives the other players huge odds on their draws, and you could end up losing to a straight draw.

The play is 3 bet.

[TStoneMBD]

i agree with the flop call and turn raise jdalla. if you get 3bet then its an easy fold. a flop 3 bet might not eliminate anybody and SB will probably cap the nut flush draw. this doesnt do you much good other than to call the turn and river while you let the guy behind you chase cheaply.

[joseki]

Why do you think 3bet is the only play? It's unlikely that you'll get a fold (let alone two) and you'll put less pressure on them than if you get the chance to face them w/ two bb on the turn. The turn card will dramatically change the value of your hand, so why not wait to get your money in when you've got more of the best of it?

That said, I think you're ahead here quite often, but that you don't give up all that much by folding. Seems like a reverse implied odds situation. Another spade is expected almost half the time, and against three other limpers you'll likely have to dodge many non-spades.

Anyway, FWIW, I think building this pot with a 3-bet is not the best play. I agree with whoever said calling and raising a non-spade turn.

[JDalla]

never looked at it quite like that... From my experiance this would be appear to be a -EV situation, but perhaps my experiance has selective memory.

[aLOWdAkING]

You guys would fold if you called the SB c/r and then he 3bets you on the turn with a non spade turn card? Especially if its heads up, that seems a bit weak for me. SB could have two pair, in which case you absolutely need to call a 3bet, or could have something like TPTK with the Ace of spades, or some combo of a flush/straight draw.

If he has a read on him, then that obviously factors into things, but for me, I just can't fold the turn 3bet, considering the variety of terrible players at Party. If it was 4suited, thats another story.

[JDalla]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys would fold if you called the SB c/r and then he 3bets you on the turn with a non spade turn card? Especially if its heads up, that seems a bit weak for me. SB could have two pair, in which case you absolutely need to call a 3bet, or could have something like TPTK with the Ace of spades, or some combo of a flush/straight draw.

If he has a read on him, then that obviously factors into things, but for me, I just can't fold the turn 3bet, considering the variety of terrible players at Party. If it was 4suited, thats another story.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) it was Pokerstars... slightly better players than party (I think?)
2) it was not heads up... 4 players in the pot.
3) you have to think if he only has a flush draw, is he really playing it that strong? Wouldn't such a player go broke fairly quickly, thus decreasing the likelyhood of unknown playing in said way. Not to say players don't play flush draws aggressively but, c/r flop of 3 other players and then 3 bet the turn... seems like something only someone on major tilt would do, but I could be wrong.

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]


I guess I just gave the SB too much credit, as I personally would never make the play he made without a flopped flush (or possibly a set).

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't pump a flush draw with 3 callers? I don't believe you.