Probably a basic PF question but....

[aK13]

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="red"> MP1 raises </font> , 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero ?

[shadow29]

This is a clear fold.

[scotty34]

Getting 6.5:1 immediate odds (7.5:1 after UTG+2 calls), I would muck this right away. You have zero high card value. The straight potential of 23 is somewhat limited. The flush draw won't come enough for you to be paid off, and when it does, you have the lowest possible flush.

[Supern]

You are kidding right?
Fold!

He is raising a limper not just the blinds so
he probably has something and just pairing will not
do you any good.

[scotty34]

I don't think I would call until 56s, or maybe even 67s.

[Ricardido]

The suited connectors value increase in multiway pots, but personally i dont like playing real small connectors like 23 and 34. My very lowest ill play is usually 56s on the big bind. The reason is that with 23 you to hit a flop hard to make it worth the extra bet. Call it weak tight but i prefer waiting for better hands to put my bets in.

In limit i find myself wanting to play the high suited connector from the BB KQ,QJ,JT if facing just one raise.

[aK13]

Damnit.

Well I lost quite a bit on this, cuz I hit my flush on the turn, but board paired on the river and filled PF raiser's boat =(. What odds do you think would be needed to play something like this from the blinds? 12:1?

[DMBFan23]

I usually call this unless the PFR or CO are TAGgy/2+2 caliber. then my implied odds arent as good.

[AmarilloJim1]

Fold.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Damnit.

Well I lost quite a bit on this, cuz I hit my flush on the turn, but board paired on the river and filled PF raiser's boat =(. What odds do you think would be needed to play something like this from the blinds? 12:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that probably sounds about right. Personally, I don't like to ever play a hand like this, except with a lot of limpers and me being the the SB. I'm also a little tighter than I should be though at 17.5 VPIP.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually call this unless the PFR or CO are TAGgy/2+2 caliber. then my implied odds arent as good.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon dude. My BB isn't worth that much.

Next case. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

edit: I don't play this and I'm at 20.4x vpip right now (along with a 12.xx pfr!!) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Supern]

The problem is that when the whole table takes the flop someone may have a higher spadehand than you as well. Meaning that if you hit your flush you loose more money.

So just muck it and be done with it. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[skoal2k4]

it's not an auto-call, but I'll call this every once in awhile to change things up a bit. It's great having these types of hands hit for me and showing it down... I love being perceived as a LAG!!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that when the whole table takes the flop someone may have a higher spadehand than you as well. Meaning that if you hit your flush you loose more money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Flush over flush is very rare. If there are 4 to the flush on the board that's another story...

[Supern]

Not very rare at all. Not if every suited hand gets played. I would say its about 20% that someone has a higher spadehand than 23.

And if you hit your flush on the flop or the turn you have to worry about the redraw.

[nickg1532]

[ QUOTE ]
Damnit.

Well I lost quite a bit on this, cuz I hit my flush on the turn, but board paired on the river and filled PF raiser's boat =(. What odds do you think would be needed to play something like this from the blinds? 12:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

In your example I fold. I would call getting about 9:1 or better though (one more cold caller)

[Rev. Good Will]

It looks like I'm alone here on this looking at some of the responses, but I think this is a worthy call getting 1:6.5+, not factoring the good implied odds you'll be getting. I don't know where one poster got 20% of the time one flush beats another, but I rarely see that.

And plus, if we whiff the flop, you can drop this hand like it has scabes.

[Supern]

I asked the question about higher flush probability in the Prob forum. And if everyone takes the flop and there's a 10-player table it is about 24% probability someone has a bigger hand with the same suit.

But if 5 players fold you are better off probably. But then the odds go down as well.

[Rev. Good Will]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked the question about higher flush probability in the Prob forum. And if everyone takes the flop and there's a 10-player table it is about 24% probability someone has a bigger hand with the same suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

the table is currently 4-handed, hero included.

I'm not worried about a higher flush

[Supern]

Of course not. But with the hand he describes it's a clear fold.

I am talking about if you should ever play it. And the best thing is probably to not play it. And that's what i'm talking about.

[nickg1532]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like I'm alone here on this looking at some of the responses, but I think this is a worthy call getting 1:6.5+, not factoring the good implied odds you'll be getting.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I personally fold here, i think it is close, and assuming you play better than your opponents i don't think calling is as huge a mistake as everyone is making it out to be. As i mentioned above, with one more person in this pot I call everytime (unless EP limper is a notorious limp-reraiser)

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked the question about higher flush probability in the Prob forum. And if everyone takes the flop and there's a 10-player table it is about 24% probability someone has a bigger hand with the same suit.

But if 5 players fold you are better off probably. But then the odds go down as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be more clear, it is about 25% chance that somebody is DEALT 2 suited cards the same as yours. However, if we consider whether they actually play these suited cards and the chance that the flush actually comes in, then the chance is very slim (for example, if they were dealt Js4s they would probably fold).

This is my understanding. Anyways, this was my first hand at the table so I played it...nothing beats getting a table image like this on the first hand! =P.

[Supern]

If you dont play it for the flush why do you play it?
A pair will not make you happy.
23 Doesn't make alot of straights.

Two pair and trips are ok of course. But two pair can easily be destroyed if the board pairs. And if the flop is 22K it's not impossible he has KK and you lose alot of money.

I'm not saying you cant play the hand, but the play will probably not be EV+ over time.

[lies]

i wouldnt call until at least 67s

[DMBFan23]

why 67s but not 54s?

[Emmitt2222]

Call for sure. It becomes even easier if the people who called suck and/or are aggressive enough to pay you off when you hit. I'm only folding this if the players are really good [but then they wouldnt coldcall]. I am actually calling this if there is only one other caller also because then I have a better chance of my 2pair and trips holding up so there isnt that big a difference between three or four people to the flop. Chance of hitting two pair or better is something like 5.7:1 or something close to that so with implied odds its a call. Read peter_rus, he converted me from me tight BB ways.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Call for sure. It becomes even easier if the people who called suck and/or are aggressive enough to pay you off when you hit. I'm only folding this if the players are really good [but then they wouldnt coldcall]. I am actually calling this if there is only one other caller also because then I have a better chance of my 2pair and trips holding up so there isnt that big a difference between three or four people to the flop. Chance of hitting two pair or better is something like 5.7:1 or something close to that so with implied odds its a call. Read peter_rus, he converted me from me tight BB ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter_Rus can also mop the floor with any one of us. He defends with Xxs I know that. I don't think anybody here can make this into a -.42BB/hand like Peter_Rus, though.

[Entity]

I called in a similar situation (one less caller actually) the other day, but I'm a donk.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="red"> MP1 raises </font> , 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 7:1 right now, and probably 8:1 after UTG+2 calls. That's not bad. I tend to make calls with suited junk from the BB at around 9-10:1 (I used to be doing it at 8:1, but I've tightened that up a little bit). Since this hand is so easy to play postflop, I might make this call preflop. If you tell me that the villains in this hand are donks who call down with all sorts of hands, the call becomes easier.

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
... but I'm a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad you realized this over the last 4 mos.

-Jaran

[gvibes]

I make this call a high percentage of the time. If MP1 limps, button limps, and you hold the same hand in the SB (assume a passive BB), do you fold? The odds are the basically the same (although the implied odds are worse in the hypothetical hand).

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... but I'm a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad you realized this over the last 4 mos.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

I always realized it, but I'm just realizing now how profitable it really is.

Welcome back, freakshow.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]


Glad you realized this over the last 4 mos.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet. Jaran's back. I love that guy!