My Star Wars problem [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Irieguy

05-23-2005, 02:46 PM

Ok, I saw episode 3 yesterday and loved it. Then I came home and watched episodes 4-6 again because I really don't see how anybody can help from doing that right after watching ROTS.

Anyways, I love Star Wars and have never been one of the types of people that like to criticize the details of the saga. The Ewoks and Jar Jar suck ass, of course, but everybody already knows that... even George Lucas.

But one thing bothered me a bit while I was watching yesterday:

Anakin was created by a Sith Lord directly from the midi-chlorians or whatever nonsense. Then he was trained as a Jedi from like age 10. He had all kinds of Jedi masters around, including Mace, Yoda, Obi-wan, etc. He was always fighting and kicking ass. He likely did all kinds of fighting in the Clone Wars.

Now, Luke comes along. Luke never even saw a lightsaber until he was 19 or so. He goes through some half-ass training with Yoda for what couldn't have been more than a few months, and I don't think he's ever had a real lightsaber fight.

But he's supposed to face Darth Vader and hold his own? Yeah, he lost and got his arm cut off... but it seems like Darth Vader (a Jedi-trained Sith Lord who was spontaneously conceived from the Force itself) should have had ZERO trouble handling a half-trained pseudo-Jedi in his first ever lightsaber fight.

It's just something that seemed a little strange as I watched all the movies yesterday. Maybe somebody can give me an explanation to help it sit a little better with me.

Irieguy

cold_cash

05-23-2005, 02:58 PM

I can't say for sure, but I'm just going to guess and say that Luke was even more of a "natural" than Vader is/was.

ClaytonN

05-23-2005, 03:00 PM

WGAF

chaas4747

05-23-2005, 03:01 PM

I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Luke, just have him turn to the Dark Side and rule the universe with him.

mostsmooth

05-23-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's just something that seemed a little strange as I watched all the movies yesterday. Maybe somebody can give me an explanation to help it sit a little better with me.

[/ QUOTE ]
you answered your own question

The Yugoslavian

05-23-2005, 03:04 PM

Your thinking about this has gotten way too uptight.

Go to that hookah spot and meditate on this in a more relaxing environment.

Also, how long was Luke training with Yoda in Degoba? Perhaps it was longer than it seemed...and Luke was particularly strong with the force compared to most Jedi.

Yugoslav
PS Welcome to OOT...n00b!

kurosh

05-23-2005, 03:05 PM

I have a different problem. How does having the high ground make you able to cut all of someone's limbs off in one swipe when he is, at the least, your equal?

jakethebake

05-23-2005, 03:10 PM

You really need to find a girlfriend.

Girchuck

05-23-2005, 03:10 PM

Perhaps, Yoda training will enable a talented novice to hold his own against a master for a while. You don't really know how long Darth Vader was out of active lightsaber training. Maybe he was a bit rusty.
Or, as others suggested, perhaps Luke not dying is a measure of how strong Darth Vader really is. So strong, that he can afford to toy with his opponent.

kerssens

05-23-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Luke, just have him turn to the Dark Side and rule the universe with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like the perfect answer to me.

jedi

05-23-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, how long was Luke training with Yoda in Degoba? Perhaps it was longer than it seemed...and Luke was particularly strong with the force compared to most Jedi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Months is my guess. Remember, the hyperdrive on the Falcon was disabled. It would have taken Han and company a long time to get to Cloud City.

ZeeJustin

05-23-2005, 03:30 PM

I haven't seen episode 6 yet (watching it tonight), but I've seen 1-5. Forgive me if I'm leaving out something from 6.

Anyway, In the DV / LS lightsaber fight in ep5, Darth Vader absolutely did not want to kill Luke. That was made perfectly clear. He even told the emperor he wanted Luke to join him.

Furthermore, Luke leaving the training was a crucial part of the story. It was an ongoing theme. Anakin was the same way. Neither Anakin nor Luke were logical. They ignored logic and instead tried to save everyone they cared about. The Jedi Masters taught their students to learn to let go of close ones, but the Skywalkers had a problem doing this. They couldn't focus on the big picture. Like father like son. IMHO that theme was very well done.

The fact of the matter is that Luke was nowhere near ready for Vader when he left, and Obiwan and Yoda made that perfectly clear to him. Luke only survived because Vader wanted him to.

samjjones

05-23-2005, 03:33 PM

Its pretty clear to me that Vader isn't as powerful after Episode III as he was before. Yes, he's able to defeat Obi-Wan in the Death Star, but Obi-Wan was pretty up there in years, and he pretty much sacrificed himself so Luke/Leia/etc. could escape. Vader is bad-ass enough that he's able to whoop up on and cut his kid's hand off in Empire. But Vader in suit probably wouldn't stand a chance against young Obi-Wan or any other powerful guy at that point in a lightsaber fight. I think everybody's scared of him because there are no other Jedis left at that point, and since he's the last one, his powers appear stronger than they actually are.

durron597

05-23-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But he's supposed to face Darth Vader and hold his own? Yeah, he lost and got his arm cut off... but it seems like Darth Vader (a Jedi-trained Sith Lord who was spontaneously conceived from the Force itself) should have had ZERO trouble handling a half-trained pseudo-Jedi in his first ever lightsaber fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

"If he could be turned, he could become a powerful ally..."
- Darth Vader

"Luke, come with me, we could rule the galaxy as father and son!"
"I'll never join you!"
- Darth Vader & Luke Skywalker

Notice how important it is for Vader to test the cryogenic freeze device on Han Solo to make sure it isn't lethal. But realize that Luke loses BOTH lightsaber fights in ESB and RotJ. The only reason the light side wins at the end is that Luke manages to find the good that still remains in Vader, and Vader betrays the emperor and kills him to save Luke's life - at great cost to himself, since the Emperor blasts him and greatly damages his life support equipment as he falls down the shaft.

[censored]

05-23-2005, 04:08 PM

Other's have touched on some things but one left out so far is the difference between luke in part 5 and part 6. A good amount of time lapses between those episodes during which it is assumed that Luke has further developed his Jedi skills. You should have noticed the profound difference in him right from the beginning of episode 6 when he first deals with Jabba. He was able to use the Jedi choke and Jedi mind trick, non of which he knew in part 5, later in the episode he is much more in tune with the force. Additionally he is much more confidenent through out part 6.

That being said it is also clear that Vader did not want to kill Luke (Luke says as much) and most likely a Luke could not have defeated the full efforts of Vader. Note how easily it was for the emperor to deal with Luke.

DMBFan23

05-23-2005, 04:16 PM

it could be argued that luke wins in RoTJ, until the emporer gets up and packs luke's fudge

Irieguy

05-23-2005, 04:19 PM

This was my first OP in this forum... I thought it was for having fun and screwing around talking about something other than poker.

Getting answers like "who cares," "get a girlfriend" or "it's just a movie," seems kind of lame to me.

It should be self evident when discussing a movie that it's only a movie you are talking about. It is also obvious that there are other, more important things in life to ponder and other, more constructive ways to spend time.

But sometimes it's fun to just talk about a movie. It's quite funny that you can get trolled in this forum, when trolling the OOT forum is about the most ridiculous, pathetic thing you can do.

Back to the discussion: I like the concept that Darth Vader in his suit is nowhere near the warrior he used to be and that he would get smoked by any fit Jedi. Luke was able to learn enough to hold his own for a bit against a quadra-pseudoplegic Vader... but an intact Anakin could have disarmed him and gave him the father speech much more adroitly.

Irieguy

[censored]

05-23-2005, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it could be argued that luke wins in RoTJ, until the emporer gets up and packs luke's fudge

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see how it could be argued any other way. The only disagreement IMO is whether or not Vader allows Luke to win. Although if I remember correctly Vader induces Luke into using his anger (aka the dark side) which would have increased his powers.

jakethebake

05-23-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it could be argued that luke wins in RoTJ, until the emporer gets up and packs luke's fudge

[/ QUOTE ]

Why RoTJ? Why isn't it RotJ?

durron597

05-23-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the discussion: I like the concept that Darth Vader in his suit is nowhere near the warrior he used to be and that he would get smoked by any fit Jedi. Luke was able to learn enough to hold his own for a bit against a quadra-pseudoplegic Vader... but an intact Anakin could have disarmed him and gave him the father speech much more adroitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this explanation because it doesn't explain Vader hunting the galaxy and killing all the Jedi that escaped Order 66.

Vader lost for the same reason that Palpatine loses to Mace Windu after killing 3 masters in a matter of seconds.

[censored]

05-23-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like this explanation because it doesn't explain Vader hunting the galaxy and killing all the Jedi that escaped Order 66.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would also not jive with any of the expanded universe where Vader is a complete badass.

[ QUOTE ]

Vader lost for the same reason that Palpatine loses to Mace Windu after killing 3 masters in a matter of seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is?

jedi

05-23-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Back to the discussion: I like the concept that Darth Vader in his suit is nowhere near the warrior he used to be and that he would get smoked by any fit Jedi. Luke was able to learn enough to hold his own for a bit against a quadra-pseudoplegic Vader... but an intact Anakin could have disarmed him and gave him the father speech much more adroitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this explanation because it doesn't explain Vader hunting the galaxy and killing all the Jedi that escaped Order 66.

Vader lost for the same reason that Palpatine loses to Mace Windu after killing 3 masters in a matter of seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darth Vader after RotS --> Still young badass.
Darth Vader during RotJ --> Old guy who can only kick the ass of half-trained Jedi.

Redmen62

05-23-2005, 05:20 PM

In the books it is said that Vader lost much when his body was so badly damaged, and that was the only thing that kept him from becoming the most powerful Jedi ever as his midochlorian count would indicate.

Major nerd content in white:

FWIW, 20 years after he is insulted by not being named a master by the council, he still has not achieved mastery as a dark jedi according to his Star Wars collectible card game stats. The Emperor is an ability 7 Dark Jedi master, while Vader is an ability 6 dark jedi, the same as Maul. This would seem to indicate that his injuries indeed severely limited his growth in the force

daryn

05-23-2005, 05:22 PM

<blockquote>In risposta di:<hr />
<blockquote>In risposta di:<hr />
<blockquote>In risposta di:<hr />
Back to the discussion: I like the concept that Darth Vader in his suit is nowhere near the warrior he used to be and that he would get smoked by any fit Jedi. Luke was able to learn enough to hold his own for a bit against a quadra-pseudoplegic Vader... but an intact Anakin could have disarmed him and gave him the father speech much more adroitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this explanation because it doesn't explain Vader hunting the galaxy and killing all the Jedi that escaped Order 66.

Vader lost for the same reason that Palpatine loses to Mace Windu after killing 3 masters in a matter of seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darth Vader after RotS --> Still young badass.
Darth Vader during RotJ --> Old guy who can only kick the ass of half-trained Jedi.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't buy this at all. vader is still very powerful in the suit. what do you guys base this weak old darth vader theory on??

disjunction

05-23-2005, 05:33 PM

IMO opinion any evaluations of abilities that do not come from the movies don't count. It's merely the conjecture of a fan, and about as "official" as your opinion or mine.

disjunction

05-23-2005, 05:36 PM

The theory is terrible. Ability to use the force comes from the mind not the body, and ability to fight corresponds directly with force ability.

My interpretation is similar to others expressed here, that Vader's heart wasn't in it. Not that he wasn't trying to kill Luke in some way, but rather that he was unable to get angry enough and channel the dark side.

jedi

05-23-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't buy this at all. vader is still very powerful in the suit. what do you guys base this weak old darth vader theory on??

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly from Lucas himself. He talked about seeing only old men and half trained jedi fighting in the original trilogy. When the prequels came around, we got to see the golden age of jedi.

Most likely, this was a cover up to explain the comparatively slower lightsaber duels in the originals.

dhende3

05-23-2005, 08:38 PM

Call me a Star Wars nerd but I am pretty sure Darth's powers were only 40% of what they could have been without all of the burning and limb loss. The quote from Lucas was that his powers were 80% of Sidious' and they would have been twice that had he not have been a cyborg.

The Yugoslavian

05-24-2005, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to find a girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is by far the least of Irieguy's worries.

On several different levels...

Yugoslav

[censored]

05-24-2005, 02:23 AM

I just watched episode 1 again and I now have another problem. Why in the hell would a planet choose a 17 year old girl as it's queen? It spefically says she was newly elected. WTF? I don't get that at all.

Additionally I now agree with those who say episode 1 should have not been made at all. About the only really cool thing from the entire movie was Darth Maul and the only really good scene being the dual of fates at the end.

cold_cash

05-24-2005, 02:28 AM

I don't know what it says in the movie, but Queens aren't elected. When it's your turn, it's your turn, regardless of how old you are.

I'm also not very familiar with Episode 1.

[censored]

05-24-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what it says in the movie, but Queens aren't elected. When it's your turn, it's your turn, regardless of how old you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I thought. But Palpantine clearly says when introducing her to the "newly elected" which makes no sense. Being a young queen I could somewhat buy as it could happen with death's or what not but elected? WTF

lorinda

05-24-2005, 02:47 AM

Code:<hr /><pre> PALPATINE
To state our allegations, I present
Queen Amidala, the recently elected
ruler of Naboo, to speak on our
behalf.
</pre><hr />

Is it not possible that they elected the current Queen to also be the ruler.
A bit like the Queen of England beating Tony Blair in an election.

Lori

daryn

05-24-2005, 02:48 AM

she mentions in episode 2 that the people of naboo were thinking of amending the constitution so she could serve another term.

lorinda

05-24-2005, 02:53 AM

Code:<hr /><pre> PADMÉ: Popular rule is not democracy, Annie. It gives the
people what they want, not what they need. And, truthfully,
I was relieved when my two terms were up. So were my
parents. They worried about me during the blockade and
couldn't wait for it all to be over. Actually, I was hoping
to have a family by now... My sisters have the most
amazing, wonderful kids... So when the Queen asked me to
serve as Senator, I couldn't refuse her. </pre><hr />

Episode 2 script (I don't remember that line, cut or bad memory? I remember Daryn's line which doesn't appear)

*Edit: It also proves my original theory wrong.

Lori

lorinda

05-24-2005, 02:55 AM

Code:<hr /><pre> ANAKIN: Well, tell me, did you dream of power and politics
when you were a little girl?

PADMÉ: (laughing) No! That was the last thing I thought of,
but the more history I studied, the more I realized how
much good politicians could do. After school, I became a
Senatorial advisor with such a passion that, before I knew
it, I was elected Queen. For the most part it was because
of my conviction that reform was possible. I wasn't the
youngest Queen ever elected, but now that I think back on
it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was
ready. </pre><hr />

[censored]

05-24-2005, 02:55 AM

I still have the problem of a 17 year old girl being elected with no real explanation given.

Daliman

05-24-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to find a girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis may very well be the most misinformed thing you have EVER posted in any forum, Jake.

And that's saying something... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

billyjex

05-24-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it could be argued that luke wins in RoTJ, until the emporer gets up and packs luke's fudge

[/ QUOTE ]

Why RoTJ? Why isn't it RotJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

you nerds really nitpick.

lorinda

05-24-2005, 03:01 AM

Profile: Padme (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/amidala/)

This is as good as you're going to get. Basically she was a genius.

Lori

david050173

05-24-2005, 03:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You really need to find a boyfriend .

[/ QUOTE ]

THis may very well be the most misinformed thing you have EVER posted in any forum, Jake.

And that's saying something... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I fixed his post. Happy?

david050173

05-24-2005, 03:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Profile: Padme (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/amidala/)

This is as good as you're going to get. Basically she was a genius.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

More to the point, half the population is male and decided to vote for the hotter of the two canidates. Of course the fact that she was 14 is a bit disturbing....

SuitedSixes

05-24-2005, 03:10 AM

The problem with the physical deterioration theory is that it doesn't explain how Yoda is such a kick ass warrior when he is 1 foot tall and weighs 8 pounds.

The force has nothing to do with physical ability, and I think that's the point of Yoda being like Yoda is..

[censored]

05-24-2005, 03:10 AM

cool thanks.

jakethebake

05-24-2005, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You really need to find a girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis may very well be the most misinformed thing you have EVER posted in any forum, Jake.

And that's saying something... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...nice. I don't keep up with everyone here's love lives. Perhaps I should. So you're saying he has a hot girlfriend? Then he needs to be spending much more time with her.

jnalpak

05-24-2005, 10:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a different problem. How does having the high ground make you able to cut all of someone's limbs off in one swipe when he is, at the least, your equal?

[/ QUOTE ]

i am contemplating the same thought except my guess is that b/c of Anakins thinking he was better then ObiWon he figured doing a half tuck twist into a flip will let him defend himself a little more easier...but we all know what happens..

razor

05-24-2005, 11:35 AM

wow, this is a really cool thread... makes me wanna go watch these movies again...

The once and future king

05-24-2005, 11:52 AM

As someone has pointed out allready. He wasnt trying to kill Luke just find out the extent of his abilities and turn him to the darkside.

Notice how when Luke hits Darth, Darth immediately chops his hand off. Something he could have done at any point but not conducive to converting someone to your ideology.