The holdem-ization of 1-2 Party stud

[MRBAA]

I recently cashed out and left myself just $500. I knew this was a bit tight, but I'd been running good and figured I'd be back up to $1,000 in no time.

Or maybe not. Playing one table of 3-6 stud and one of 2-4 he, I managed to lose $450 last Thursday. Combo of a bunch of unlikely losses (lost three flush over flush $100+ stud pots within an hour) and perhaps a wee bit o' the old tilt. Anyway, I decided to punish myself by playing two tables of 1-2 stud with my remaining $50, starting with $25 on each, and see if I could build back up.

I hadn't played 1-2 in awhile and I was immediately struck by the fact that there are more good players. Used to be I could play for a couple hours and NEVER see anyone I'd consider to be a really solid player. No more. Just as in the little hold'em games, many of the 1-2 stud games feature a couple of really good players mixed in with the fish. I think this is a sign that stud is getting more popular, more players are getting in and staying in. So while there are more fish, there are also a core group of good players.

I've had several interesting heads-up matches.

btw, in case anyone was concerned for the health of my b/r, I've worked it up to $450 so far. I'll move back to 3-6 when I get to $750 this time, to make sure I have a cushion (unless I see a $60+ avg. pot size, in which case I may risk a buy in). And I'm eyeing the $5-10 games -- but mostly I see lstream sitting in games with avg. pot sizes around $40, so I haven't really been tempted as yet.

[count1]

Yes I agree with you. I have noticed this also. The games are tougher and harder to beat. I did quite well for about a month, but I have found the players are more observant of your play and I can't remember the last time I played in a game with a total "fish".

[MRBAA]

Well, I still think the games are very beatable, but it's notable that there are some other solid players where there were very few before. Someone like lstream, who has now plays 5-10, was struggling to beat 1-2 just a few months back. That's really a common thing you see in the HE forums, where a poster will be bitching about tough 2-4 games one month, then playing four 5-10 6-handed tables a couple months later. I think this can only be a good sign for stud, because for every new solid player you can probably figure at least 10 bad ones are giving stud a try.

[CJC]

Hi Bud,

I know I haven't posted in like, well forever.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Sorry I didn't make it up to FW for the signing, but I have been swamped with the new job.

Anywhoo, I have actually started playing on a more consistent basis lately. Was reading your post and it made me chuckle. I reloaded one of my online accounts last week with a whopping 50 bucks.. ( don't ask.. I was board and didn't have much in my account that actually works with gaming ).. One week later........ I have $1200 bucks. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Online Stud games are great if you ask me.

Later,

CJ

P.S. - I am not advocating using the strategies I applied in gaining that much money in such a short time. Just though MRBAA would like to hear from me again, plus it was relevant to the discussion.

How is everyone by the way??

[MRBAA]

Hey CJ -- you missed a good day. Must have signed 50 books, had a great crowd, JoeTall and other 2+2ers were there. Even got in some stud. I'll be at Fox again on Sat. June 25 -- probably arriving around 5 and staying 'til 1 or so. If you can make it, let me know. And yes, online stud games are very good. Despite my small setback, b/r is in shape for a juicy 10-20 stud game if one is available at the Fox.

[Hauser_III]

[ QUOTE ]
So while there are more fish, there are also a core group of good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was inevitable that this happened. Get enough people talking about how many fish there are at Party, and eventually enough good people will show up to take advantage of the fish. I've been at $33 SNG's lately that are just rock gardens, and I'm starting to feel like a guppy sometimes.

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
but mostly I see lstream sitting in games with avg. pot sizes around $40

[/ QUOTE ]

The average pot size thing stopped me from playing 5/10 for quite a while. I have become less fussy about this, and instead focus on the players at the table. If there is someone I really like playing against, then I will give the table a try. If things don't work out well, then I move on after a while. Quite often, I find the table moves from $40 averages to $60+.

A couple of months ago, I played a fair bit of 1/2 and I agree - there were some pretty decent players there. The odd thing I am finding is that of the 1/2, 3/6, and 5/10 games, I find the 5/10 the easiest of them all. This could be beginners luck at these tables, though since I have only about 1 month of experience though. However - MRBAA we seem to think alike in quite a few hand examples - I bet you would enjoy and and beat the 5/10 game.

[DeadMoneyOC]

People are getting bored with Hold'em. I cant speak for the games at PP but on PS yesterday I played a .5-1 Stud8 game for awhile, got bored and decided to jump in this 2-4 game. The 2-4 game was much better than the .5-1 game. I hit'n'run the 2-4 game and went back to the .5-1 game. It was very weird. On a related note I play a lot of Hold'em SNGs on PokerRoom and I have found that the 10s,20s are usually way too tight/solid and really not very profitable. I step up and play the 30s, 50s and its all maniacs who try to bluff you off your nuts. It is really quite strange. My friend who plays the same games agrees with me so its wasnt just some strange tuesday night this happened.

By no means are any of these low limit games bad but it just seems as the higher-low limit games are more profitable. I guess there are a lot of people out there trying to learn the game and bulid some BR.

[MRBAA]

Well, when the b/r gets back to $1,500 or so, I just may give it a try. The 3-6 games have generally been very good -- and I do notice that some of the same players (and not just the good ones) also play 5-10.

[CJC]

Hi,

The 25th looks good on the calandar so far. Letme know as we get closer.. ( so easy to say that now that I have weekends off.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

CJ

[bholdr]

i think you might be overestimating the players at 1/2 and 3/6- it's rare that i ever see what i would consider a 'solid' player at either of those levels- most of the relitivly good players are weak-tight, and what you have been observing may just be tighter play- pots are rarely jammed, third is still rarely raised, etc...

of course, there are a few 2+2ers there- but that may be due to the current reload bonus. i've been playing a little 1/2 to clear the bonus, and i know that there are some people from bonuswhores that play 1/2 as well.

and i don't know how you play on such a short bankroll. i like to have 300bb for whatever limit i'm playing.

[MRBAA]

Well, I've seen some decent players at both 1-2 and 3-6. At 1-2 it's been striking to me to see some opponents adjusting their play to opponents, pot sizes, boards and the like.

btw, the money I have at Party is not my b/r -- I'm rolled for 300bbs at 10/20. I don't withdraw from my b/r for living expenses, it's strictly poker money. Just was pissed about losing, so decided to see if I could play my way back up.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I've seen some decent players at both 1-2 and 3-6. At 1-2 it's been striking to me to see some opponents adjusting their play to opponents, pot sizes, boards and the like.

[/ QUOTE ]

these kind of things make them halfway-competent, imo, not 'solid' by a long shot. how much of this do you think is due to bonus chasers using stud to clear their reloads? how many of them do you think are 2+2ers? i'd estimate that there are between one and two dozen 2+2ers playing low limit stud on party.

[ QUOTE ]
btw, the money I have at Party is not my b/r -- I'm rolled for 300bbs at 10/20. I don't withdraw from my b/r for living expenses, it's strictly poker money. Just was pissed about losing, so decided to see if I could play my way back up.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh... good.

[BeerMoney]

Overall, the stud games are good, I have probably only played 50 or 60 hands of 1/2. So, I can't really comment on those.

However the higher limit games can be extremely fishy at times, and at other times, they can be rather tough..

You can see tables at 10/20 with Percy, redboy, dolphin5, gratefuloneb, roland, etc. type lineups.. This is when its important to PAY ATTENTION TO THE TABLE YOU'RE at.

[dittoduke]

Hi,
I was advised to ask for some help from you in the 1-3 game at Foxwoods. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have been getting burned the last four months there and I play a TAG (Roy West and Sklansky) Thanks

[MRBAA]

First a little tough love: As I said to lstream back when he was complaining about not being able to beat 1-2 on party, if you can't beat this game, you've got some serious holes in your strategy.

I've only played the 1-3 at Foxwoods once with the .50 ante -- CJ and I had a LAG fest and both finished up about 15bb in an hour or so (which proves exactly nothing).

Now a little advice: This game has a groteseque overante. When I played, most players had not adjusted to the fact that every hand starts with 1.66bb in the pot! Compare that to the 5-10 structure, with the SAME ante and a $2 bring in -- there you start with .6bb in the pot.

This is a sick, distorted structure. When I played, many players didn't compensate enough for the overante -- They played way too tight and still gave too much respect to a $3 raise on third or fourth and would often fold getting 2.5-1 or better. So after a few players folded, I'd be raising any live pair, three high cards etc. CJ and I had a couple of raising wars when we both tried to do this. Basically, alot of folks still play as if it's the old 1-3, with no ante.

On the other hand, some players adjust by being ridiculously loose. If you're at a table with a few of these folks, where they will not fold, you'll want to be TAG, as you say you are. Pound your big pairs and strong draws as they will call with crap. If they are also passive, you'll still want to come in with alot of hands -- any pair, str8 draws down to 89T, any flush draw even with 3 dead for a limp, etc. You need to balance starting with an edge against the effect of the ante.

Part of that is making the distinction between players who will fold too easily and those who will call too loosely and adjusting your play accordingly.

Finally, the pots can get large compared to the bet size pretty fast in this game. If you call or bet on fifth, it should be relatively rare for you to fold on sixth or the river (unless you miss a draw on the end). Even with one pair unimproved, it's often worth calling when there are 5 bets or more in the pot.

In low stud, making "good" folds on the river against bad opponents can be a costly mistake.

btw, Roy West's book is excellent IMHO but will have you playing way too tight and giving opponents way too much credit in this game.

I will be at Fox Saturday, 6/25 from about 5 to about 1. CJ and I may do an hour of 1-3 again, and you'd be very welcome to join.

Good luck -- and post some hands, that's a great way to learn.

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said to lstream back when he was complaining about not being able to beat 1-2 on party

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think I was whining about 3/6, but point taken.

[MRBAA]

hmm, thought I remembered last fall you posting about having trouble at 1-2 and I actually offered to sit at a table with you.

[lstream]

I had dropped down to 1/2 after having a poor run at 3/6. I remember the offer though, and much appreciated the gesture. The drop to 1/2 worked well as a way to relax and concentrate on re-learning proper play without being too expensive. My bad run of cards at 3/6 had been compounded with some bad habits that crept into my play. The 1/2 tables I played at usually were pretty passive, so I had to loosen up in order to avoid getting drained by the ante.

[bigredlemon]

7 Card Stud High-Low ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Hero: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds

Total pot: (4.00 SB)


This has been happening more and more lately on party .5/1

It makes me wonder if I should limp in with three connecting wheel cards.

[dittoduke]

Thanks for the advise. It's right on the money. I was playing way too tight-same as 1-3 no ante.

[MRBAA]

yw. btw, I spoke with Kathy Raymond manager of the Foxwoods poker room in April and she said that eventually they will probably just have the 1-5 game with .50 ante. I think they never liked the 1-3 no ante game as it was such a rotten introduction to stud -- with old rocks just waiting to be dealt rolled up and the rake eating up tiny pots. So enjoy the new, crazy 1-3 structure while it lasts.