A9s builds a monstah pot

[tiltaholic]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (32 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero ?????

do I raise/call/fold the flop and why?

everyone is bad at this table (bbj at 350,000) execpt BB and UTG+1 who are solid tight aggresives.

[DMBFan23]

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Flop: (32 SB) 4, 7, 4 (8 players)

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holy hell

EDIT: raising won't get anything to fold so I call and hope to improve for one. if the pot were a little smaller but still big, then I could see raising improving your winning chances. but here I don't think it does.

[tiltaholic]

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Flop: (32 SB) 4, 7, 4 (8 players)

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holy hell

EDIT: raising won't get anything to fold so I call and hope to improve for one. if the pot were a little smaller but still big, then I could see raising improving your winning chances. but here I don't think it does.

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First, this was the table SSH was written for.

Second, call the one on the flop even though it might be raised + reraised...? (Could I bring myself to fold for 2 or 3 more in this pot?)

[DMBFan23]

if it comes back capped to you, then I think you can fold.

hmm, that might be an argument for raising, just to slow down the action...I'm not sure how well that works cause I haven't played in a 8 handed pot in a while

[adsman]

I might get blasted for this but I raise. Reasons for;

1. This is a huge pot and I want to do whatever I can to win it. If you call it is probably going to get raised behind, so I'm going to do the raising myself and try and knock some players out.

2. Raising would be incorrect if you were trying to protect your hand, (like QQ). There it would be better to call and raise the turn. Here you have no hand to protect. Ace high with a backdoor flush. Every hand you knock out on the flop increases your equity.

3. The preflop capper is still to act. Then 3 players are going to be faced with 3 cold if he 3 bets. That could knock out one of your TAG's.

[topspin]

When you build a pot this big preflop, you're pretty much looking at a crapshoot on the flop. No one is folding this flop for two cold -- not overcards, not pocket deuces -- so I'd just call. The added bonus is that with UTG+1's position, if you do pick up something worth protecting on the turn, you might be able to raise his bet and get out some hands at that point.

[adsman]

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When you build a pot this big preflop, you're pretty much looking at a crapshoot on the flop. No one is folding this flop for two cold -- not overcards, not pocket deuces -- so I'd just call.

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None of us are going to fold this for 2 cold. But there are 5 donks on the flop. And I've seen plenty of poor players fold for 2 in a pot this big on the flop. It's not logical for them to fold, but to them it is logical.

[topspin]

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When you build a pot this big preflop, you're pretty much looking at a crapshoot on the flop. No one is folding this flop for two cold -- not overcards, not pocket deuces -- so I'd just call.

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None of us are going to fold this for 2 cold. But there are 5 donks on the flop. And I've seen plenty of poor players fold for 2 in a pot this big on the flop. It's not logical for them to fold, but to them it is logical.

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I don't think you have enough of a hand at this point (two weak overcards, plus a BDFD) that you're worried about going to any lengths for a small chance to protect your hand on the flop. You're mostly hoping to get rid of bigger broadway overcards and pocket pairs at this point, hands that I think are going to stick around in this spot, and I'd rather keep the pot smaller for a chance to protect the turn if a 9 falls.

A read helps but FWIW I think the average Party player leans towards being over-loose than over-tight postflop.

[droolie]

Now I see why you were distracted.

I'm raising this for value. LOL!

Seriously though when the pot is this big an extra bet simply cannot hurt. There's no way to fold this and your probably seeing this capped anyways so why not maximize the chances of folding a hand that might cost you the pot. You may need to repeat this on the turn if you're draw is still live.

Even though the pot is huge some players might fold live draws just because they know they have a longshot and it will be expensive to see it through. AJ, AQ etc come to mind giving you a better chance to win spiking your A on the river.

[MrWookie47]

I think I call one on the flop and hope for the best. My main question though is about your limp/reraise. I wonder why no one else has questioned it.

[krishanleong]

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I think I call one on the flop and hope for the best. My main question though is about your limp/reraise. I wonder why no one else has questioned it.

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I think it sucks.

Krishan

[adsman]

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I think I call one on the flop and hope for the best. My main question though is about your limp/reraise. I wonder why no one else has questioned it.

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I would assume that hero saw how many people called the raise and decided to build a monster pot.

[krishanleong]

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I think I call one on the flop and hope for the best. My main question though is about your limp/reraise. I wonder why no one else has questioned it.

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This is not a good idea with A9s I don't tink.

Krishan
I would assume that hero saw how many people called the raise and decided to build a monster pot.

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[tiltaholic]

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I think I call one on the flop and hope for the best. My main question though is about your limp/reraise. I wonder why no one else has questioned it.

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I think it sucks.

Krishan

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please elaborate?

because our aces our questionable?
because our 9 is too weak?
becuase we're hoping for 2 pair/flush draw?

I initially had this as a question...but chose not to bring it up since I was most concerned about the flop decision.

Does our situation change appreciably if it is 3-bet 8 wasy instead of capped? At least I might convince the TAGs I had a mid pocket or something that would cause them to fold incorrectly...? But I dunno, I was confused about the best option pf. If I was in later position, I think the reraise is required, no?

[tiltaholic]

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Now I see why you were distracted.

I'm raising this for value. LOL!

Seriously though when the pot is this big an extra bet simply cannot hurt. There's no way to fold this and your probably seeing this capped anyways so why not maximize the chances of folding a hand that might cost you the pot. You may need to repeat this on the turn if you're draw is still live.

Even though the pot is huge some players might fold live draws just because they know they have a longshot and it will be expensive to see it through. AJ, AQ etc come to mind giving you a better chance to win spiking your A on the river.

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Yeah, no kidding. This table stayed juicy for 200 hands. It was awesome. I'm kicking myself for not raising...but I called.

I'll post the rest of the hand when i get back to pokertracker cuz I forget the action.

[krishanleong]

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because our aces our questionable? <font color="blue"> Yes</font>
because our 9 is too weak?<font color="blue"> not really </font>
becuase we're hoping for 2 pair/flush draw? <font color="blue"> Yes</font>

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Basically you can pump the pot when you have a hand that when it hits you stand to make a killing off of people who are drawing dead. PPs are the only hand that meets this criteria.

PP turning into sets are also concealed and you can win a ton off big PP or single pair hands drawing dead. With AXs the best you can hope for is 2 pair (doesn't happen often enough) and even then you are still not a monster favorite like you are with a set. A flush draw isn't even a made hand. Sure lots of slansky bucks but that's not enough to put a ton of dough in preflop. Finally if you do make a flush, your implied odds aren't that great because flushes are so obvious in ways sets are not.

Krishan

[droolie]

I disagree with that. PP's are great for this type of play but not the only hands that are worth raising for value in a family pot. I don't like it wit A9s because you really only have one way to love your chances of winning , the nut flush. I'f you're going to do this with suited holding that are mraginal I'd rather see you do this with a suited connector where you can get the nuts two ways.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
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because our aces our questionable? <font color="blue"> Yes</font>
because our 9 is too weak?<font color="blue"> not really </font>
becuase we're hoping for 2 pair/flush draw? <font color="blue"> Yes</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically you can pump the pot when you have a hand that when it hits you stand to make a killing off of people who are drawing dead. PPs are the only hand that meets this criteria.

PP turning into sets are also concealed and you can win a ton off big PP or single pair hands drawing dead. With AXs the best you can hope for is 2 pair (doesn't happen often enough) and even then you are still not a monster favorite like you are with a set. A flush draw isn't even a made hand. Sure lots of slansky bucks but that's not enough to put a ton of dough in preflop. Finally if you do make a flush, your implied odds aren't that great because flushes are so obvious in ways sets are not.

Krishan

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hey-

i hear what you are saying, but i sort of disagree.
if i was the button, i think it's a clear value raise w/A9s.
i don't think you should limit yourself to raising for value (in a huge multiway pot) to only pocket pairs....

[tiltaholic]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (32 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (18.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero ?