Raising rather than over-limping from mp or co

[Wynton]

I've been wondering whether I would be better off raising, rather than limping, a variety of hands, when I am in mp or co and one player to my right has limped in.

Specifically, here are some hands that I would ordinarily (against a table of unknowns) limp in with from mp or co, following one limper:

-J10o
-J9s
-QJo
-Q10
-Axs
-Kxs
-A9o
-A8o
-low pairs (22-66)

Is this approach wrong in general against a table of unknowns?

[Nick Royale]

I played my first session 1/2-6max yesterday. My stats were 15.2% PFR and 20% vipip. I realise these numbers are ridiculous, but here's my way to play these hands:

-J10o fold
-J9s raise or limp (depending on the players yet to act)
-QJo raise
-Q10 fold in MP, raise in CO (unless it's suited of course -> raise)
-Axs raise (x>4) limp (x<5) I don't think you can adress all Axs hands with the same action
-Kxs raise (x>8) fold (x<9)
-A9o raise
-A8o raise
-low pairs (22-66) raise (66/55) limp (44-22)

I would really like some feedback on this since I know I'm not playing these correct.

[RunDownHouse]

I think so, Wynton. I don't typically even limp those after a limper or two unless the table is ridiculously passive. I don't think getting aggressive in what will be a three- or four-way pot with J-high is the way to go. QJo is my cutoff for raising, and sometimes I'll limp QTs and JTs depending on limpers and table conditions.

I don't hate raising the better of those multiway-type hands, like JTs, on the button, but only as long as its occasional, not your standard play.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't typically even limp those after a limper or two

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't fold the pairs, do you?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been wondering whether I would be better off raising, rather than limping, a variety of hands, when I am in mp or co and one player to my right has limped in

[/ QUOTE ]

i sometimes wonder if i would be better off overlimping rather than raising in this spot - then i remember that i never limp

winning pots without a showdown is a big part of how to win playing short handed - i think your pre-flop action should usually/always match that upside

there are a bunch of interesting posts on the merits of limping playing low limit short handed if you can be bothered searching for them - i can tell you that they would be more than 12 months old and naphand was usually a catalyst and contributor

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]

i sometimes wonder if i would be better off overlimping rather than raising in this spot - then i remember that i never limp

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really mean that you NEVER limp, no matter how many others may have limped before you?

(And yes, I will search as you suggest, though I'm not particularly optimistic about my ability to find the relevant posts.)

[RunDownHouse]

After two limpers I'll limp the pairs. After one I use all three options, depending on the actual pair and table conditions.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
i sometimes wonder if i would be better off overlimping rather than raising in this spot - then i remember that i never limp

[/ QUOTE ]

then sometimes i limp

i'm looking more fondly at J10o - i know its bad but twice i have overlimped 2 on the button with this hand recently and flopped the cosmos that held up - none the less part of me is sure that these results have been sent to taunt and that all limping is evil

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i sometimes wonder if i would be better off overlimping rather than raising in this spot - then i remember that i never limp

[/ QUOTE ]

then sometimes i limp

i'm looking more fondly at J10o - i know its bad but twice i have overlimped 2 on the button with this hand recently and flopped the cosmos that held up - none the less part of me is sure that these results have been sent to taunt and that all limping is evil

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it the common view that it is bad to limp with J10o on the button, after 2 others have limped? I have invariably limped in this situation.

[Silverback]

I think getting into the habit of raising is teh best way and will serve you well for moving up limits.

However at lower limits you will get more callers, I mean yesterday I was called by a freak with T3o, but in general I find my winrate higher at higher limits, but not so good at $1/$2, maybe its variance, I dont know, I know I dont autobet flops with 3 callers etc,

but I play all limits from $1/$2 to $5/$10,

Im not an expert and Im always looking into my play,

From the below I think some of these hands are to weak to raise a limper from MP, I think Id fold most of the below, only playing the high Axs,Kxs

From the CO, well, I think about limper, if hes loose Ill raise him, if hes tight, and some players do play 20vpip 2 pfr, I more likely fold, but from below

-J10o F
-J9s R
-QJo R
-Q10 R
-Axs R most not the low xs
-Kxs the high xs
-A9o R
-A8o ??? prob F
-low pairs (22-66) prob F

Also you need to think about how players after you will act, a LAG on the button who keeps calling the raises, then loose blinds coming in, then Id fold more of the above.

[Silverback]

I think JT on button would be fine,

You kinda have to develop your own style, some might fold and only play with hands they can raise and take control of the hand, others will happily limp alot of hands on the button with callers in front

[kiddo]

U should almost never limp after 1 limper, its as simple as that. Stop doing it now. When u have raised every hand 2nd in for a week u can start to limp again with a few hands in MP if players behind u are extremly loose and passive.

You always need a very good argument not to raise 2nd in playing SH.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
U should almost never limp after 1 limper, its as simple as that. Stop doing it now. When u have raised every hand 2nd in for a week u can start to limp again with a few hands in MP if players behind u are extremly loose and passive.

You always need a very good argument not to raise 2nd in playing SH.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I do all the time. I'll have to see if there is a PT filter I can use to see how I'm doing when I get home.

Krishan

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
U should almost never limp after 1 limper, its as simple as that. Stop doing it now. When u have raised every hand 2nd in for a week u can start to limp again with a few hands in MP if players behind u are extremly loose and passive.

You always need a very good argument not to raise 2nd in playing SH.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, then I really have learned something new. I am looking forward to trying this (though I have my usual questions whether the recommended strategy here works at 2/4 or 3/6, where I generally play.)

I encourage others to comment whether they agree with Kiddo's view that one should almost never limp after 1 limper.

[kiddo]

Post two hand where u think calling in CO is fine with 1 limper and I will explain why it isnt.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Post two hand where u think calling in CO is fine with 1 limper and I will explain why it isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well all the hands I mentioned at beginning were hands where I've been limping, though admittedly doing so without a clear idea whether it makes sense.

If you want me to focus on two particular situations from co, how about 44 and QJo? For purposes of your analysis, is it ok simply to say that this is a table of unknowns, or did you want more information?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
U should almost never limp after 1 limper, its as simple as that. Stop doing it now. When u have raised every hand 2nd in for a week u can start to limp again with a few hands in MP if players behind u are extremly loose and passive.

You always need a very good argument not to raise 2nd in playing SH.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, then I really have learned something new. I am looking forward to trying this (though I have my usual questions whether the recommended strategy here works at 2/4 or 3/6, where I generally play.)

I encourage others to comment whether they agree with Kiddo's view that one should almost never limp after 1 limper.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Kiddo, but when playing 2/4-full I always limp 44-22 and Axs x<5 2nd in in MP. Is this something I should fold playing 6-max?

[RunDownHouse]

Those weak aces will KILL you shorthanded. Dump 'em.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Post two hand where u think calling in CO is fine with 1 limper and I will explain why it isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling station limps in MP 70/6. Any 2 suited, any 2 broadway any ace, any pair.

Button is 70/6, same description.

SB is passive preflop.

BB is solid and will call a multiway pot with lots of hands and play tricky postflop. Won't raise without a solid hand from the BB.

You have K5s or 44.

Krishan

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Those weak aces will KILL you shorthanded. Dump 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I will.

[Silverback]

I agree never limp after 1 limper, from MP or button,

I dont know about button, I personally dont,

[Mig]

Ok I don't get why everyone think that raising trash like QJo MP is the way to go vs one limper already and loose button/blinds.

You only have 20-30% to flop a pair right?
Even if you flop a pair the loose player will call you down with Ax, Kx, wich will happen about 10-20% of the time that's not considering that they play all suited or connected card. I mean starting a raising war pre-flop with trash like J-9s and Q-Jo is really dumb. Those cards are trash in full ring and they still are trash in 1/2 6 max since all the flop are about 4-5 handed...

Raising the trash above SH 1/2 6 max is really dumb in my opinion. To win with that in the conditions of 1/2 6 max you have to pair.

A flop like 2-3-3 in SH 1/2 max is a really scary board, compared to the other SH, it's not rare to see people limping with 25s or 34s etc...

[Silverback]

you raise but miss the flop, your opponent who limp also misses the flop, as you raised he is less likely to bet out and bluff into you.

[ QUOTE ]
it's not rare to see people limping with 25s or 34s

[/ QUOTE ]

that is precisely why you should raise QJ and try and isolate yourself against this weak limper.

[Mig]

I do know that the problem is that 1/2 6 MAx you won't isolate him, Instead you will inflate the pot b/c the button will call you down with any half decent hand 67s etc, and the blinds usually call as well since they already "have money in the pot"... People 1/2 6 max are so [censored] dumb it's unbelievable... Even if the EP player raise instead of limping and that you 3 bet him you won't even be headsup. The blinds will most likely call... I have stats on people with more than 1k hands and they NEVER folded in blinds and never folded even if they missed the flop when they had Ax... that's not even a joke. 1/2 6 max is really horrible that makes raising so useless unless you already have a monster or are in a tight 1/2 6 max game which never happens...

[RunDownHouse]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[Silverback]

so how would you play the given hands, call or fold?

How long have you been playing this way and how have these hands performed like this,

[Mig]

Is any of you playing 1/2 6max at all and raising QJo ; J9s etc from MP ? And are you successful doing so ? I read a few article on that subject in particular and they don't find it a very good hand at all, you are too easily outkicked and you absolutly need to pair to win a showdown since Kx and Ax which are really likely to call to the shodwon in SH since they really suck at 1/2 max...

Anyway for what I know I'm still in the red zone in 1/2 6max (I was pretty successful after 50k hands full ring) but I just can'T win the 6 max. I still need to work on my play but raising hands like QJo on the button vs 2 limpers + the blinds is sure not a good play IMO...

[RunDownHouse]

I raise QJo UTG in 1/2 6max, but fold JTs. I think Doyle Brunson's famous quote is even more important when shorthanded.

At work, so no PT results, I'll check when I get home.

[i]EDIT: I really doubt I have enough "QJo raise from UTG" or "raise in MP after a limp" hands in my database to make any meaningful conclusions about winrate.

[naphand]

I think you would be better considering raising 1 limper from Button/CO rather than lumping CO and MP together.

The reason being position, of course. Raise on the Button as you have it, and raise CO to steal the Button.

From MP you still have four players to act behind you, you wont steal the Button anything like as much making post-flop play much harder.

I look at a 6-max table as 3 positions: Blinds, UTG/MP, CO/Button. This is perhaps an over-simplification but I find it helps when I am consiudering my positional plays. Obviously the blinds are more of a defending position, the CO/Button are aggressive attacking positions (blind-stealing, good position) and UTG/MP are not really stealing positions (except in the right games) and you are usallu having to contend with at least 1 player who has position on you and need stronger hands to play on, so are much tighter.

Hands like QJo/JTs etc. are marginals and you will have to experiment to find where you are comfortable playing these.

As strip points out, SH is a game where you should try to win a lot without a SD. My experience of $1/$2 (some time ago now, admittedly) was that they were principally games where you have to SD. Consequently raising QJo UTG is asking for trouble, if you can handle the trouble, good for you but I think most less-experienced players would struggle to play marginal hands from UTG/MP.

In loose no fold-em games I see no problem with over-limping a lot of hands, and even open-limping OTB. Open-limping his is a Sklansky (game-theory based) recommendation for quite a few hands SH, in direct contrast to the received wisdom here. So over-limpers and open-limpers should not feel shamed if they can find the right spots to do this, IMO.

[Wynton]

Nap, it's interesting that you group co/button together and utg/mp together. This makes sense to me, even though I've probably been thinking about mp and co as one group.

In any event, I actually am playing mostly 2/4 and 3/6 now, and while some tables definitely the type where you simply have to showdown best hand consistently, others have a fair amount of folding by the turn. If we posit that the table is fairly loose/passive (rather than full of unknowns as I initially indicated), I wonder whether people would still discourage overlimping as strongly.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
Open-limping his is a Sklansky (game-theory based) recommendation for quite a few hands SH

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a good post, but what does the above mean and where did you get this info?

[ QUOTE ]
So over-limpers and open-limpers should not feel shamed if they can find the right spots to do this, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I no longer open limp, and rarely overlimp, I do agree with the above statement, and I actually had a higher winrate at $1/$2 when I played that way,

However you will get punished playing that way moving up limits, even $2/$4 I noticed a big difference, not in that I got punished, but that I could get more heads up hands and win without a showdown,

[naphand]

See my other post "Poker Academy". The AI for this software was constructed in consultation with David Sklansky, among others. I am assuming the recommendations/responses I am seeing are consistent with game-theory, as they are part of the AI.

[naphand]

stripsqueeze hit the nail on the head with his comment about winning hands without a SD.

In games where you are very likely to have to SD, or no chance to steal the blinds etc. you must restrict your raises to those with value only (meta-game considerations aside, which are less significant against really bad players). This is actually still a lot of hands, and there is still value to be placed on intitiative.

HOWEVER

You will be raising less hands, but you simply cannot pass up the opportunity to play more hands against really bad players. Folding would be the worst option with a lot of hands that are not worth a raise PF, so you over-limp or even open-limp more. These will be hands that can win pots multi-way, suited connectors, small pairs, Axs, J9s etc.

This stands to reason. I have to admit I have not delineated exactly which hands for which games, but I am working on it (hence the purchase and post regarding Poker Academy).

[Mig]

Thanks a lot nap, that is exactly what I was thinking after 15k games of 1/2 max. When you have NO fold equity you better to over limp and see what the flop brings before firing the loose limpers and the overcallers..