Good place for a stop and go... or fold preflop?

[Karak567]

***** Hand History for Game 2091485714 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:12449637 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Monday, May 23, 00:38:36 EDT 2005
Table Table 13853 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 6: sepher28 ( $740 )
Seat 9: illa5th ( $1035 )
Seat 2: SNAKEMN ( $650 )
Seat 5: DaShuang ( $690 )
Seat 3: majikdaddy ( $775 )
Seat 1: runcm ( $2885 )
Seat 8: Boney872 ( $1225 )
Trny:12449637 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sepher28 [ 9c 9s ]
sepher28 calls [50].
Boney872 folds.
illa5th folds.
runcm raises [250].
SNAKEMN folds.
majikdaddy folds.
DaShuang folds.
>You have options at Table 14435 Table!.
sepher28 calls [200].

I won't tell you what the flop was, but I pushed it, no matter what.

[TStokes]

I would probably push preflop but I if you are going to pull a stop n go I like your play.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably push preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is horrible advice and you should not do this yourself tstokes.

i find it hard to fold that PF, but pushing ANY flop is also a bit wreckless.

I like to stopngo with total rags, this hand has value.


I'd push in front of him on a safe flop, but be less inclined if the flop had an A and more inclined on a paired flop or (obviously) an undercard flop.


Andre

[octaveshift]

If you have resigned yourself to going to war, I would push over his 250 raise. If you plan to push the flop no matter what- why call and give him a chance to see it? That said, I probably fold to his raise. 99 is not worth it, IMO.

I am from Lancaster too, BTW. Went to Penn Manor, class of 92. Any chance I know you?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

I don't like your preflop line at all. The call is a terrible idea. Furthermore, this is not a good situation for a stopNgo. The way you played it, fold when it comes back around to you.

Scuba

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to stopngo with total rags, this hand has value.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh man. this could lead to trouble.

[Shillx]

You are essentially risking 700 here to win 375. So if you pushed every single flop, you would need to have it work about 2/3 of the time to breakeven. The problem imo is that there are going to be too many boards that you will not want to push into, and then you will just be giving him a free 200. This looks like a fold preflop to me when you consider how often it has to work when you do push, and how often you will actually be in a good spot to push to begin with (I'm assuming that you will be dead to 2 outs if he does call your push).

Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm still trying to figure this out.

Brad

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
You are essentially risking 700 here to win 375. So if you pushed every single flop, you would need to have it work about 2/3 of the time to breakeven. The problem imo is that there are going to be too many boards that you will not want to push into, and then you will just be giving him a free 200. This looks like a fold preflop to me when you consider how often it has to work when you do push, and how often you will actually be in a good spot to push to begin with (I'm assuming that you will be dead to 2 outs if he does call your push).

Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm still trying to figure this out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen you post here before, but your advice is dead on IMO.
Scuba

[The Yugoslavian]

Yeah...you can fold this here given that you limped.

Yugoslav
PS Unless you can put villian on a huge range due to the ubiquitous reverse-gap concept and then you can push...

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yugoslav
PS Unless you can put villian on a huge range due to the ubiquitous reverse-gap concept and then you can push...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo, did you notice that Newt bugs post essentially is a "reverse gap" post/question?

[yeau2]

Given that this is a 22, and the villan has a lot of chips, and its still technically the weekend (sunday night), these 3 combine to make this a more clear decision imo then some are making it to be.

If you stop and go this one, hes calling the flop no matter what unless he absolutely gets rocked...i.e. he somehow raised J10 or 22-55 and had this flop comes A rag rag. Regardless, in a 22 this guys not folding the flop for 500 more enough of the time to make this a profitable play. Time and time again I see players in 22's with a big chip stack pay off a player preciesly like that...so if your asking for stop and go or fold preflop, fold and wait for a better spot is a clear favorite in my eyes.

[oxymoron]

How about this 99 stop n go?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t3145)
UTG (t1115)
Button (t3090)
SB (t650)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t700</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t500.

Flop: (t1500) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t2445 (All-In)</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: t3945

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins t3945. </font>

[pooh74]

dont like it at all...for obvious reasons

[oxymoron]

It's four handed so chances are he doesn't have an A. I might be getting him to lay down JJ-KK here. It's also the bubble so he would feel like a complete moron if he goes out now.

I assume your saying you prefer to fold or go all in preflop? I think I would have lost this hand given that stratagy. The scary flop made him fold.

[jcm4ccc]

Both hands in this thread are terrible examples of stop and go.

Stop and go is a risky move that should be made when you are in the BB and feel that you have no choice but to try and win this pot. It is a desperation move, and it usually fails.

I would classify these two hands as a bluff rather than a stop and go.

[djshawk]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen you post here before, but your advice is dead on IMO.
Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Shillx is a micro limit guru, and has provided many a sound word in that forum. I look forward to reading more of his posts in here.

[TheNoodleMan]

Why are you ready to go broke here? You have plenty of chips to wait for a better spot. Unless you have a read on the villian, I'd give his raise some credit and live to see another hand.

[oxymoron]

Maybe I'm missing something...it wouldn't be the first time. At least I was right that I want to act first when I'm doing a stop and go which would be why you want to be in the BB facing a raise where everyone else folded to you? Am I right here? The power of the stop and go is that you are heads up and first to act on the flop which might make villain fold. Correct? I do realize that this isn't a true stop and go because I would have played a AK3 flop a lot differently.

Now on this hand in particular I was calling 2.5BB with someone who is potentially stealing. I have 99's so I have a good shot at under cards coming up (not sure about the math I'm on break now but is a 60% chance of under cards close (20/50)?) and honestly when the AA2 came up and I was first to act I was more excited than if under cards came up because I knew a I had an easier shot of villain dumping PP's higher than mine. Also, villain can easily fold here because he has plenty of chips. I would have treated a short stack differently.

Thanks for your help.

[pooh74]

It's also the bubble so he would feel like a complete moron if he goes out now.

So would you is my point. You are risking way too much for a slight chip advantage with this play. I am not sure that the times this will work will bump your finishes up enough to justify busting out early with 2 other shorties about to go out anyway 4 handed.

That said, its probably a smart read and good play and maybe there is a justification that it works enough to be +EV.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm missing something...it wouldn't be the first time. At least I was right that I want to act first when I'm doing a stop and go which would be why you want to be in the BB facing a raise where everyone else folded to you? Am I right here? The power of the stop and go is that you are heads up and first to act on the flop which might make villain fold. Correct? I do realize that this isn't a true stop and go because I would have played a AK3 flop a lot differently.

Now on this hand in particular I was calling 2.5BB with someone who is potentially stealing. I have 99's so I have a good shot at under cards coming up (not sure about the math I'm on break now but is a 60% chance of under cards close (20/50)?) and honestly when the AA2 came up and I was first to act I was more excited than if under cards came up because I knew a I had an easier shot of villain dumping PP's higher than mine. Also, villain can easily fold here because he has plenty of chips. I would have treated a short stack differently.

Thanks for your help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the critical question.

You had 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Would you have pushed if the flop was J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

If your answer is yes, then you truly did a stop and go, which was terrible to do in this situation. If your answer is no, then you did not do a stop and go. You just played your hand.