Chip spewing, or correct play?

[2+2 Junkie]

Both villians are LAG's in my database. Really frustrating that I can't do anything but be -6BB/HR at party poker while every one here seems to think you should crush that site. This type of hands seem to be happening all the time to me, so please let me know how I need to please let me know where I am going wrong:
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (18 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

[milesdyson]

Call flop. Nice turn action.

River sucks. LAGs can play decently postflop, tooooooooooo.

BB has a flush. I think I would fold. Looks like you're splitting with SB, and you can feel like a dope ass if you fold in such a huge pot. Or you can kill yourself if you folded a winner, but I would convince myself BB has a flush. Then I'd post the hand here to prove how badass I am.

Sorry you lost.

[toss]

It was a bad beat. Possible to run red for 20k hands. You're not the only one. Keep at it.

[irishpint]

isnt the flop raise good because we're making SB call 2 cold, and if he's on a flush draw he doesnt have odds to do that (and anytime they put $ in w/out odds its good for us)?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
isnt the flop raise good because we're making SB call 2 cold, and if he's on a flush draw he doesnt have odds to do that (and anytime they put $ in w/out odds its good for us)?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's basically impossible to make any play draw incorrectly to a flush. In this case, Hero's PFR inflated the pot to 6 SB preflop. A flop raise offers 9:2 = 4.5:1 which is enough to take one off for the 9 outer (even if we held a diamond, an 8 outer is good when you consider that you need only a tiny amount of implied odds to make the call correct.

[Pov]

I think your problem is you tried to make a steal raise against players you identified as LAGs. Steal from rocks - play for value against LAGs. JTo is of little value here, IMO.

[kapw7]

If you don't steal with hands like JTo then you just don't steal enough.

[Grail]

[ QUOTE ]
Really frustrating that I can't do anything but be -6BB/HR at party poker while every one here seems to think you should crush that site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size?

Downswings happen. Really.

Recently had a 12k hand -2.18BB/100 downswing, with a shorter 2k -5BB/100 mixed in there. Since then I've been killing this game at +4.87/100 over my last 8k hands.

You played this hand fine. When SB caps on Turn I'm think it's a split, or he's overplaying a set hoping for a boat.

River sucks. I end up calling for sanity in a huge pot to often.

-G

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
isnt the flop raise good because we're making SB call 2 cold, and if he's on a flush draw he doesnt have odds to do that (and anytime they put $ in w/out odds its good for us)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that a flush draw actually has more equity than we do on the flop, right?

[spacemonkey57]

NH - I assume the flop raise was a free card play?

[imported_Reaction]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your problem is you tried to make a steal raise against players you identified as LAGs. Steal from rocks - play for value against LAGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

My fist thought was that I didn't understand the PF raise into two LAGs either. Not to say it's right or wrong, merely it is not a play that I can see myself making.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't steal with hands like JTo then you just don't steal enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

JTo is a fine hand to steal with, IMO. But isn't it more importantly who your stealing from? In other words wouldn't the quality of your hand need to improve with the likely hood of the blinds, one or both, staying in? I ask because stealing and HUSH are very underdeveloped parts of my game and this is my current thinking.

[gopnik]

just call the flop, you don't want to lose SB.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't steal with hands like JTo then you just don't steal enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is not the hand, it is the players in the blinds. Against two rocks, you can steal with any hand. Against two LAGs you're raising for value, not to steal.

It's not a steal if you know they'll call. With two LAGs in the blinds you're virtually guaranteed to get called by one and probably both. Against tight or even average players the raise is one I would make most of the time because the times I flop a good hand are augmented by the times I take the pot away right now or it sets me up to take it away on the flop when my opponents miss or I can at least represent something that beats them. That isn't the case here.

Now as to whether this is a good play as a value raise, I guess that would be better debated in the HUSH forum. I think it could be closer than I originally thought the more I think about it, but still much too close for me after considering the rake issues at this limit. I would pick better spots.