Ax suited, EP

[LoaferGee12]

In general, what are people here doing with A2s - A7s in early position? I can't decide if open-limping these in EP is +EV or not and don't have near enough PT data to find out.

[istewart]

At most of the tables I play at I limp with them.

[shadow29]

I hope you're asking if you should limp or raise with them, because folding sucks.

It depends.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you're asking if you should limp or raise with them, because folding sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'd never raise the majority of those UTG. At tight tables with freqent preflop raising (which you'll rarely find at 0.5/1, I'll grant) I don't have a problem with folding the lower kickers in EP.

[krishanleong]

Once you get to 2/4, folding a2s-a7s becomes pretty automatic.

Krishan

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you get to 2/4, folding a2s-a7s becomes pretty automatic.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at Party. I think it's safe limping all these in a typical PP 2/4 loose passive game.

[AmarilloJim1]

In microlimit games, those that feature a lot mult-way pots, limping is acceptable.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you get to 2/4, folding a2s-a7s becomes pretty automatic.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at Party. I think it's safe limping all these in a typical PP 2/4 loose passive game.

[/ QUOTE ]

a2s-a7s suck in EP - almost as much as KJ or A9

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you're asking if you should limp or raise with them, because folding sucks.

It depends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you checked your stats for Axs and Kxs limped from early position?

Here are my stats. Axs and Kxs 4 or more positions off the button, not a blind, and no raise.

http://home.satx.rr.com/alphadeals/AxsKxsEarly.jpg

I discovered this last week and have been folding them early ever since.

[istewart]

That seems pretty abnormal. You might just be running bad, too. Or not selecting good tables /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[shadow29]

Thats weird.

All of my Axs are positive for me. (Over many hands, too.)

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you get to 2/4, folding a2s-a7s becomes pretty automatic.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at Party. I think it's safe limping all these in a typical PP 2/4 loose passive game.

[/ QUOTE ]

a2s-a7s suck in EP - almost as much as KJ or A9

[/ QUOTE ]

I make money limping KJo from early but have lost money raising it from early. I don't play A9o though.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems pretty abnormal. You might just be running bad, too. Or not selecting good tables /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you checked your stats on these, Stewart?

[istewart]

Not enough of a sample for me.

[grjr]

This has been my worst performing group of all the hands that I play. I still limp mid-suited connectors and one-gaps from early though because they are good money makers for me from any position.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Not enough of a sample for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean that you're not playing these hands, or that there's not enough instances in your PT database to convince you? 'Cuz, I'm not sure this is a statistical issue, so anecdotal evidence may be valid. (Run it the other way...take AA/KK/QQ/AKs/AKo/AQs where you were sitting within 3 seats of the Button and see what you get.)

I just ran mine...this is atrocious! Yes, it only amounts to 851 hands out of 40K+ (about 2% of my total hands), but the loss is about 1/2 as big as my net win (i.e. if I hadn't played these hands I'd be 50% "richer"). Granted, for the first few hundred, ok, few thousand, ok, maybe 25 thousand or so, hands I was a supremely shitty player (as opposed to the merely crappy player I am now), but that's still pretty compelling.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not enough of a sample for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean that you're not playing these hands, or that there's not enough instances in your PT database to convince you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me translate that for you.

"I'm losing with them." /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ClaytonN]

I'm kinda puzzled as to why you play K8s through K6s with such regularity.

Anyways, suited aces are only good in passive and loose games. In some games, when there are 3-4 to the flop and raising before the flop, I think they are not profitable from early position.

You'll see both kinds of games, it's just a matter of picking the more passive games to see a profit. Same goes with low pairs.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda puzzled as to why you play K8s through K6s with such regularity.



[/ QUOTE ]

In the really loose games at TigerGaming that I was used to playing in Kxs from anywhere was a money maker. I think I may have let the hype about Party being a "fishpond" influence me a little bit. It's nowhere close to what TG was.

Anyways, I've dropped all those hands from EP and I'm sure I'll be better for it. My VP$IP is still 26% though.

[ClaytonN]

26 isn't that bad, but it's on the high side.

You definitely need to get rid of Kx suited in EP.

[dozer]

I limp with them from all positions, but I'm starting to think they are not that profitable in EP. Sometimes when you flop top pair weak kicker, these hands end up costing money.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
I limp with them from all positions

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, but do you limp them in all kinds of games? I think that's the problem here.

Example: You hold A4 of hearts in a loose passive game. You limp in UTG+1 and 6 players see a flop of A7T. Your equity in this hand is very profitable, as many would call you down with straight draws and tens or worse.

Take the same A4s hand and limp it in UTG+1. Three folds, then a raise, the BB calls and you call. That same A7T flop looks a lot crappier. If the raiser is a TAG, your equity sucks.

See what I mean? It's game dependant.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I limp with them from all positions

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, but do you limp them in all kinds of games? I think that's the problem here.

Example: You hold A4 of hearts in a loose passive game. You limp in UTG+1 and 6 players see a flop of A7T. Your equity in this hand is very profitable, as many would call you down with straight draws and tens or worse.

Take the same A4s hand and limp it in UTG+1. Three folds, then a raise, the BB calls and you call. That same A7T flop looks a lot crappier. If the raiser is a TAG, your equity sucks.

See what I mean? It's game dependant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you but I haven't found many tables at Party where I could count on 6 limpers and no raise.

[ClaytonN]

4 limpers + blinds. Not 6 limpers.

[dozer]

I usually try in sit down at loose passive games anyways, but if I'm in a tight game, which is really rare because I'm really picky on table selection, I won't open limp with them., and I raise them if folded around to me in LP.

Heres a hand that I feel was misplayed, that I have trouble with.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[droolie]

I have the same leak as grjr. All Axs lose badly in EP and early MP. They start winning in hi-jack and beyond. I always limped with them now they go in the muck. I never noticed the leak because I'm in the green overall with every Axs hand. I can only imagine how many BB's I've thrown away by playing them too liberally.