loose game, medium pair

[Augustus3000]

suppose you are playing in the party .5 1$ game or similar craze structured game with almost everybody seeing 4th. you get dealt 8s split or not whatever. usually nobody raises b4 flop unless they have a really big pair and sometimes not even then; very passive players. do you raise to thin the field and charge players with lesser hands or do you just call and hope to catch good later? any input greatly appreciated.

[bigredlemon]

pair of 8s... i'd think it's barely worth a call unless you have an ace or king kicker

[beta1607]

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pair of 8s... i'd think it's barely worth a call unless you have an ace or king kicker

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Agreed, pair of 8s is worthless in a multiway pot. You not giving anything up by folding on 3rd. I think it might be worth a bring-in if your kicker is a suited A or K and all your cards are live.

[nanoCRUSHER]

Agreed, fold third.

Furthermore, ditch the crazy Party structure and find a better place to play stud (Stars is pretty good, imo).

[PoorLawyer]

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pair of 8s... i'd think it's barely worth a call unless you have an ace or king kicker

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Agreed, pair of 8s is worthless in a multiway pot. You not giving anything up by folding on 3rd. I think it might be worth a bring-in if your kicker is a suited A or K and all your cards are live.

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i think you have to play some hands like this, especially with a big or coordinated kicker with a two flush. the ante is simply too big to sit there waiting for a pair of aces in the hole.

[vulturesrow]

Wow, I am suprised at some answers in here. In that sort of structure, if my cards are live or I have a live two-flush/two-straight, Im calling the bring-in. Implied odds are huge because people will pay you off.

Let me clarify, I was speaking specifically of the pair of 8s scenario. I dont call the bring-in with any two flush or two straight.

[mscags]

Yeah I agree with you. If I can get in for the bring in and I have just about any medium pair and half decent kicker I want to see fourth (obviously only if my cards are live, especially my trip cards). The ante is too insane to sit back and wait for the miracle hand only to have it busted by one of the 5 other idiots that stayed in with crap.

[bigredlemon]

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The ante is too insane to sit back and wait for the miracle hand only to have it busted by one of the 5 other idiots that stayed in with crap.

[/ QUOTE ]I kind of agree, kind of disagree. Recall those hold'em books that preach that if the table is loose, you want to play tighter. If the table is tight, you want to play looser. On party .5/1, its common to have half the table seeing fourth, even for a completion. If that principle is applicable to stud, which presumably does, then playing tighter than the high ante warrants on party might be better. That's not to say to never play marginal hands. But I'd do it sparinly if only to get action when you do hit the big cards.

[mscags]

I agree that if the table is loose you want to play tighter in holdem. Imagine this though, you're playing holdem at a really loose table, but everyone has to put in a small blind everytime. Wouldn't you loosen up your game considerably? That's the ante structure at the .5-1.00 game.

[PoorLawyer]

i also think there is a difference between 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif, the former being the hand youa re playing and the latter being some incarnation of the other donks in the hand. You are going to beat the 2nd hand almost 2/3 of the time....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=969591
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s 8h kh 8s - 9d js ac
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s Kh 8h 323600 64.72 176387 35.28 13 0.00 0.647
Js Ac 9d 176387 35.28 323600 64.72 13 0.00 0.353

add in a lower pair and someone playing A K rag (typical)and you are still 38% to win but only contributing 25% of the money, even with the hidden dead king....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=969610
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s 8h kh 8s - 9d js ac - 3s 3c 7h - ah ks 6c
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s Kh 8h 189980 38.00 309995 62.00 25 0.01 0.380
Js Ac 9d 94332 18.87 405604 81.12 64 0.01 0.189
3s 3c 7h 141234 28.25 358753 71.75 13 0.00 0.282
Ks 6c Ah 74362 14.87 425556 85.11 82 0.02 0.149

[bigredlemon]

Hmmm... mid pairs are stronger than I thought


But it makes me think of the 22 vs AK scenario in holdem. 22 is a favourite against AK but AK will make more money, even heads up.

With middle pairs, unless you make a big pair, it's also just either slighly ahead or way behind, correct? How do you play these? fold 5th if you don't pair your kicker?

[PoorLawyer]

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Hmmm... mid pairs are stronger than I thought


But it makes me think of the 22 vs AK scenario in holdem. 22 is a favourite against AK but AK will make more money, even heads up.

With middle pairs, unless you make a big pair, it's also just either slighly ahead or way behind, correct? How do you play these? fold 5th if you don't pair your kicker?

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I think it depends on a number of things and has to be evaluated differently in every situation. Did someone pair the board? If so is it their door card? anyone showing a flush or straight? did you pick up a backdoor draw? are your cards dead? how many people are hanging in that could draw out? Is anyone being aggressive? etc etc etc

[Augustus3000]

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The ante is too insane to sit back and wait for the miracle hand only to have it busted by one of the 5 other idiots that stayed in with crap.

[/ QUOTE ]I kind of agree, kind of disagree. Recall those hold'em books that preach that if the table is loose, you want to play tighter. If the table is tight, you want to play looser. On party .5/1, its common to have half the table seeing fourth, even for a completion. If that principle is applicable to stud, which presumably does, then playing tighter than the high ante warrants on party might be better. That's not to say to never play marginal hands. But I'd do it sparinly if only to get action when you do hit the big cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tad bit off the subject of the post but i recall reading a book, think it was hfap, that said it was correct to loosen up a bit when your opponents were playing too tight AND when they were playing too loose. Not to say to play as many hands as they are playing just a bit more than normal because you might lose a little preflop but gain more chances to take advantage of their poor postflop play. I was wondering if anybody else remembered reading something like this and if you thought this applies to a stud situatiion like the .5 1$ party game. Great answerrs so far, im learning a lot!