Utterly clueless play of TT early

[gasgod]

Second hand of tourney, so no reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) 5/1 converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t875)
Hero (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t740)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t15, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t40</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t80</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t80, MP2 folds, Hero calls t40.

Turn: (t330) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t15</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, Hero calls t15.

River: (t375) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t375</font>, UTG+2 calls t375, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1125

In retrospect, I think TT should be played strictly for set value at this stage. Comments?

GG

[microbet]

When 6 people see the flop I don't have a lot of confidence in an overpair.

[adanthar]

PF is OK with two limpers in front and fewer chips.

Make a bigger bet on the flop with all the checks - 60 should do it. 40 suggests weakness and you're asking to be bluff raised, which is probably what the button did. The coldcall behind is worrying but on this board I think it's a draw or a 77 more often than a set. Still, so far, having only bet 40 you just have a call here.

The turn is great for you and after the button betting a whopping 15 and UTG calling his draw you should be CR pushing around 100% of the time.

I think you had the best hand on the turn and may even have had it on the river although you can't call; button is often bluffing here and if UTG doesn't have 77, his next most likely hand is 65.

[microbet]

I think button has you beat. 15 is a really wierd bet for someone on a draw.

[xLukex]

Not entirely too sure what button has here. A 15 bet followed by a 375 bet is kind of hard to read, but chances are he does have you beat.

I agree that pocket pairs should be played for set value in the first few levels, and I may go to a *cheap* showdown here, but chances are button is slowplaying a straight/boat/trips/2 pair. There is a large range of hands that beat you.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Not entirely too sure what button has here. A 15 bet followed by a 375 bet is kind of hard to read, but chances are he does have you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chances are he improved on the river. 55 is very possible and so is 77 (but UTG may have that.)

Taking the turn as a standalone, you've almost certainly got the button beat and probably have UTG unless he filled up.

[microbet]

Well, I'm curious about what the button was betting 15 with on the turn, so I hope we get the results.

[gasgod]

Thanks to all for your comments. Very helpful.

Button had 55 for a full house. UTG+2 had A2o for a straight.

I escaped with most of my stack intact, but feeling that I played it badly. At least I was right about something.

GG

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to all for your comments. Very helpful.

Button had 55 for a full house. UTG+2 had A2o for a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[microbet]

Ahh, the bet of 15 just makes no sense.

When you were assuming hero was ahead on the turn were you factoring in the fact that it makes it a semi-bad beat and thus a more likely post?

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think TT should be played strictly for set value at this stage. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]Raise preflop. You have late position. A preflop raise would have got rid of both A2 and betting after the good flop would have got rid of 55 - certainly by the turn if nothing else.

This isn't results-oriented thinking either, it's common sense - you spent 110 of your 800 (nearly 1/7th of your stack) on this hand anyway; wouldn't it have been smarter to raise to 60 initially - about half of what you spent thinking you had the best hand but too scared to bet like you KNEW you had the best hand - and fold if scare cards or reraises occured?

Worst case you spend less than the 110 you paid. Best case you win the pot.

[adanthar]

Nope. If anything, most posts like this end up with the hero calling and losing to the full house on the turn /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The bet of 15 makes plenty of sense if you're a fish that wants a free card on the flop and still thinks but isn't sure you're best on the turn. They don't know pot odds.

[lehighguy]

Raise the turn!!!!!!!

Your turn play was so weak it made me cry.

[lehighguy]

Like I said, raise the turn.

[lehighguy]

I like the preflop raise as well, a large PF raise. It will clear this hand right up.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think TT should be played strictly for set value at this stage. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]Raise preflop. You have late position. A preflop raise would have got rid of both A2 and betting after the good flop would have got rid of 55 - certainly by the turn if nothing else.

This isn't results-oriented thinking either, it's common sense - you spent 110 of your 800 (nearly 1/7th of your stack) on this hand anyway; wouldn't it have been smarter to raise to 60 initially - about half of what you spent thinking you had the best hand but too scared to bet like you KNEW you had the best hand - and fold if scare cards or reraises occured?

Worst case you spend less than the 110 you paid. Best case you win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking. But in this case, I sort of think it wouldn't work out any better. My only chance to get rid of the button would be a fairly strong flop bet, which would commit at least the same number of chips. But, of course, I have a chance to win a pot that I lost by playing as you suggest.

GG

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]

Your turn play was so weak it made me cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. I spent t110 without giving myself any chance to win the hand.

GG

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your thinking. But in this case, I sort of think it wouldn't work out any better. My only chance to get rid of the button would be a fairly strong flop bet, which would commit at least the same number of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]I raise and get one caller and the flop has no overs, I make a pot-sized bet without hesitation, or raise a teaser-continuation-type lead bet if someone in front of me did that. That screams, "I've got this hand, boys."

If that doesn't get rid of him, that turn didn't help him either and still made your hand look great. More money and he has to lay it down, open-ended or not. If he doesn't, he's making a bad play.

That might be results-oriented thinking. I'm not sure. You could be betting into Queens or Jacks, maybe, but without position they might fold thinking you have something better. Aces or Kings would have let you known by now. Someone flopping a flush or straight will be obvious through the coordinated board. You can be scared someone hit a smaller set but you can't live in fear of that or you'll never get anything done.