Sofisticated turn check?

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6 BB

[Lmn55d]

I think you miss too much value from kings or TJ who wants to peel another off by checking this turn. If he raises you will be getting 8:2 effective odds or 4:1. You split with any ace and I'm not so sure someone would do this with a king enough so I think you have a fold there.

[spydog]

If villian will take shots at you when you show weakness then I like it.

Against a more passive opponent I think you need to bet the turn because Kx will pay off 2 bets and you only really fear a 6x since all Ace hands will chop.

[kiddo]

This is to sophisticated for me, against unknown I dont see why u check.

[LImitPlayer]

Why dont you bet the turn? Worse hands will pay you off on the turn and the river

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
This is to sophisticated for me, against unknown I dont see why u check.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is too sophisticated for you, odds are it isn't a great play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The idea is villian can hold one of 4 hands. An ace, a king, a 6, a draw (including 2 unpaired cards). I figure since I split with an ace, lose to a 6, and beat a king I could check the turn and call a river bet.

The point that a K may call on both streets has merit. I think that under maybe slightly different circumstances this line is very good.

Villian had JT.

Krishan

[Alobar]

if by sophisticated you mean missing out on value, then yes this turn check is very sophisticated /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
if by sophisticated you mean missing out on value, then yes this turn check is very sophisticated /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it had the question mark!

Krishan

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if by sophisticated you mean missing out on value, then yes this turn check is very sophisticated /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it had the question mark!

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn you and your punctuation!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kiddo]

U forgot pocketpairs, coldcalling in SB often means a pair.

Turncard is pretty good for you, now u are not behind an A with better kicker. There is no reasonable hand that beats you - why should he coldcall with a 6 in his hand? - so if he checkraise turn its not the end of the world, u will often enough get a split or catch a bluff.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Turncard is pretty good for you, now u are not behind an A with better kicker. There is no reasonable hand that beats you - why should he coldcall with a 6 in his hand? - so if he checkraise turn its not the end of the world, u will often enough get a split or catch a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is all correct. I misapplied a concept.

Krishan

[PokerBob]

I don't get this at all. Why are you limiting his range to a 6 or an A? If the range includes a "K", why not bet? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is all correct. I misapplied a concept.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I like a check behind more if a "K" hits the turn.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get this at all. Why are you limiting his range to a 6 or an A? If the range includes a "K", why not bet? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a better scenerio. CO raises (will raise with any 2 boardway) I 3-bet with Ac9c. Flop comes AsKsQh. He checks I call. Turn comes Q. He checks and I check behind because my kicker doesn't play and he might have made trips and if I'm ahead a free card doesn't really hurt me and he might bluff the river.

How about I raise A7 on the Button after 3 weak-tight limpers. Blinds call. Flop comes A83 rainbow. I bet an am called in 5 places. Turn is a 3.

Does this line totally suck?

Krishan

[ALL1N]

Good turn check, but you must raise the river.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Good turn check, but you must raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why?

Krishan

[Derek in NYC]

Perfect. You're chopping with any ace other than AK and A6. If you bet, you lose more if you're behind (to A6, AK, trips), plus you risk getting checkraised by somebody with fancy play syndrome (e.g., a middle pair). (Note that an FPS checkraise is +EV, but the hand is much harder to play and you need to have stronger reads to continue.) No draws on the board other than gutshots and two outers, so a freecard is pretty harmless HU.

By checking the turn, you dont give up up much, except by somebody who will call down the preflop raiser with a king AND who will call the river. In truth, because a lot of these guys will call the turn and fold the river, I dont even know that you give up bets IF the turn check induces a river bluff from somebody holding a king. (That last sentence was a doozy.)

Edited to add:

To put it differently, there is zero EV in betting if villain has an ace. There is negative EV if villain holds a 6 or AK. There is some value in betting if villain holds a K, but it is not as much as some posters think. Why?

King (particularly a raggy king like K9) will often check/fold the river, so yes, you get a bet on the turn by betting, but you dont get a bet on the river. On the other hand, a check on the turn will often get that same raggy king (or middle PP) to bet the river in a bluff, or to check-call your river bet as a bluff catcher.

I disagree with the recommendation to raise the river, because I dont think a bluff calls the raise, but a hand you're ahead of will three-bet.

Maybe I give my opponents too much credit.

[kurosh]

Aren't you a high school teacher? The title of this post makes my eyes bleed.

The turn check is really bad. If they call the flop, they either have a piece of that board and are calling down OR they assume you don't have an A or K and will make some play on you. Either way, bet the turn.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you a high school teacher? The title of this post makes my eyes bleed.

[/ QUOTE ]

High School computer science teacher. Truth be told I'm pretty solidly ashamed of the title. It really does look like 3rd grader spelling. I hope my fiancee doesn't see it.

Krishan

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you a high school teacher? The title of this post makes my eyes bleed.

[/ QUOTE ]

High School computer science teacher. Truth be told I'm pretty solidly ashamed of the title. It really does look like 3rd grader spelling. I hope my fiancee doesn't see it.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant to say it earlier, but Im an Ahole and forgot....congrats on the approaching marriage!

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

I meant to say it earlier, but Im an Ahole and forgot....congrats on the approaching marriage!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

Krishan

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is to sophisticated for me, against unknown I dont see why u check.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is too sophisticated for you, odds are it isn't a great play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The idea is villian can hold one of 4 hands. An ace, a king, a 6, a draw (including 2 unpaired cards). I figure since I split with an ace, lose to a 6, and beat a king I could check the turn and call a river bet.

The point that a K may call on both streets has merit. I think that under maybe slightly different circumstances this line is very good.

Villian had JT.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, all of these hands are not equally likely.

6's are less likely to cold call preflop and there are two of them on the board.

Aces are perhaps more likely to 3-bet preflop and there is one of them in your hand, in addition to the one on the board. Also, an ace is more likely to make some sort of play (presumably check-raise) on the flop.

I think an appropriate weighting is something more like this:

6x 15%
Ax 25%
Kx 40%
draw 20%

Which makes a bet clear.

[wheelz]

I thought the post title was supposed to be ironic /images/graemlins/grin.gif