Att to steal blinds poll

[Silverback]

Normally my att to steal blinds % is around 38-39.
I think the blinds should be given a hard time in 6 max.

However I then moved up limits, and immediatley felt I had to tighten up and in particular the att to steal blinds, why? Firstly the blinds were less, sb was 2/5 of bet and not 1/2, secondly my bankroll is spread bonuswhoring so Id rather not risk losing as much, prefer to start new limit more solid against better players.

So, what is your own att to steal blind %, only answer the poll if you are very happy with your att to steal blind, and feel no reason to increase or decrease it, Thanks

Assume sb 1/2 a bet

[Silverback]

More posters than I imagined are in the 40% region,

Does this result in higher bb/100 win for CO and button positions?

I think the averages for those from a past poll were:
CO: 0.11
button: 0.14

So who steals blinds 37+ and has better winrate in those positions?

[TStoneMBD]

my stats look like this:
BT
1
2
3
4
5
BB
SB


why do i have 8 different stats? keep in mind i have a filter set in preferences to only display 5/10 6max, so i dont know what this is about.

[Lmn55d]

I think there was a problem with party and pokertracker where the seats were numbered incorrectly after a partypoker update. Pokertracker fixed this problem but instructed users to reimport the hands from this time period. I think this is probably what it is (I have same thing). Just ignore seats 4 and 5.

[TStoneMBD]

i cant just ignore seats 4 and 5 because they comprise of over 1/4 of my total earnings, almost 1/3. my button stat and co stat are only .11 and .08 respectively, but they should go up significantly if there wasnt this error.

[Nick Royale]

Donk question:
What is considered as a blind steal according to PT?

[naphand]

This poll does not contain a representative sample, you need a lot more people to respond. My guess is most HUSH readers are stealing in the region of 25-30%, just based on the kind of posts made over the last few months.

It is also very opponent, hence game, dependent. Averages don't mean much.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]


It is also very opponent, hence game, dependent. Averages don't mean much

[/ QUOTE ]

That is very obvious, but over a few thousand hands it will become apparant if a blind steal is between 1 of teh ranges I highlighted.

Jeess, most hands are game player dependant,

[Catt]

I'm in the 35% range in the 2/5 blind structure.

[ QUOTE ]
. . . secondly my bankroll is spread bonuswhoring so Id rather not risk losing as much, prefer to start new limit more solid against better players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this at all. 1. Your bankroll is your bankroll, whether or not it is sitting in your bank, Neteller, one site, or multiple sites. 2. Failing to play your normal aggressive game out of a desire to "not risk losing as much" is a recipe for losing / not doing as well as you otherwise would. 3. Failing to play your normal aggressive game is the opposite of playing "solid" against better opponents.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this at all. 1. Your bankroll is your bankroll, whether or not it is sitting in your bank, Neteller, one site, or multiple sites. 2. Failing to play your normal aggressive game out of a desire to "not risk losing as much" is a recipe for losing / not doing as well as you otherwise would. 3. Failing to play your normal aggressive game is the opposite of playing "solid" against better opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Ive only got $200 in an account I cant really sit in at a $5/$10 game, plus I dont want to move up limits until Im real confident in my play,

I think the fact I was at a higher limit made me question, was I actually to loose in my blind stealing, I think 40% maybe to loose as from the CO you still have half the table to act after you, and from button obviously 1/3 of table to act after you,

[Stefan_K]

[ QUOTE ]
More posters than I imagined are in the 40% region,

Does this result in higher bb/100 win for CO and button positions?

I think the averages for those from a past poll were:
CO: 0.11
button: 0.14

So who steals blinds 37+ and has better winrate in those positions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 40 steal and my winrate is Button: .14 and CO: .18 after 20k hands (winrate sorted after 5-6 players, but steal from general)

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
poll does not contain a representative sample, you need a lot more people to respond

[/ QUOTE ]

well given the poll was started today, of course its only a small sample,

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is most HUSH readers are stealing in the region of 25-30%

[/ QUOTE ]

You never actually say what "YOU" do, why is this?
Ive never seen you post any stat of your own,

Also have you looked at the results, so far you not to good at guessing.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
If Ive only got $200 in an account I cant really sit in at a $5/$10 game, plus I dont want to move up limits until Im real confident in my play,

[/ QUOTE ]

True. My point was just that if you are confident enough in your play to move to a new limit, then you need to be confident enough to play your best game at that limit. Altering your play in an attempt to reduce "risk of loss" is a very bad idea -- if you feel the need to do so, then you shouldn't sit in the game at all. That's all I was saying.

I was curious and filtered for steals from the CO or Button at a full 6-handed game. From the CO I am stealing ~26%; from the Button I am stealing ~42%. Don't know if this is reasonable in others' opinions - just what I've been doing over 6000 hands (I am new to SH play).

[Stefan_K]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was curious and filtered for steals from the CO or Button at a full 6-handed game. From the CO I am stealing ~26%; from the Button I am stealing ~42%. Don't know if this is reasonable in others' opinions - just what I've been doing over 6000 hands (I am new to SH play).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 37 and 37

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
My point was just that if you are confident enough in your play to move to a new limit, then you need to be confident enough to play your best game at that limit

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confident Im a winning player, but Im sure I have weak areas to my game, and moving up limits will see those weaknesses exploited by being amongst better players.

I was thinking maybe I should tighten up on my blind stealing in general, however its difficult to work out whether the hands I play in the range that push my blind stealing from say 32% to 39% are profitable, as I would need a very large sample size, so I thought id ask the forum.

[TStoneMBD]

my attpsb is 42.5. unfortunately my positional stats arent that much help to you because of that problem. also, despite having such a high attpsb stat, i dont open A4o-A2o on the button and i dont open A6-A2o from the CO.

[Trix]

Did you update pokertracker after the 12th of April ?

If not, then do it and purge and hands after that date and reimport them.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
my attpsb is 42.5. unfortunately my positional stats arent that much help to you because of that problem. also, despite having such a high attpsb stat, i dont open A4o-A2o on the button and i dont open A6-A2o from the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems unusal, in particular from the button, I think the CO is standard.

[Alobar]

yeah, mine is like 40.1, so I got to answer for the pimp side of the poll 41-44% bay-bee!!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

shouldnt have a 45+ for the true plahyas out there?

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, mine is like 40.1, so I got to answer for the pimp side of the poll 41-44% bay-bee!!!

shouldnt have a 45+ for the true plahyas out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

been drinking???

Whos 45+, feel free to leave a post, but I doubt there will be any, but hey, maybe games at much higher limits are full of good players who play good tight solid poker and wide open for blind stealing, yeah right.

Anway,,,,,,,,,,,51 votes and poll so far proved useless, as reults to widespread

More votes please.

Any experts anything useful to say on the matter of blind stealing as regards what they believe optimal? (if there is such a thing as optimal)

Anyone with a huge hand sample, +100K want to share what hands are and arent profitable blind stealers?????

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[

been drinking???


[/ QUOTE ]

yes, and sadly my real stat isnt over 40...I just wanted to be cool /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I dont have PT handy, but Im pretty sure its like 39 or really close to

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Whos 45+, feel free to leave a post, but I doubt there will be any, but hey, maybe games at much higher limits are full of good players who play good tight solid poker and wide open for blind stealing, yeah right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sitting on an ASB of 45, over my first 20k hands at 15/30 and 30/60.

I'm not going to go over all the different values of hands, but I'll say that I do think this forum tends to underrate pairs and aces and overrate offsuit kings in these situations.

[spider]

One thing to always keep in mind that there is a big middle ground (like hands that get you from 30% steals to 40%) where folks who play well post flop (and esp HU w/ position) can make money but others may not. And if you look at the folks in the past who advocate high steal rates, these are them.

[imitation]

I steal at 42.5 at 10/20 I stole at 45+ for 10k hands. I am v. loose from the button(37/28) and CO, and v. tight UTG (11/11). This is how I play.

[naphand]

Jeesus, you are even more tetchy than me...go lie down for a bit.

I suspect that polls like this get most responses from players who are happy with their stats, not players who are uncertain. The result will be biased. My "guess" of 25-30 is based on the kind of posts and responses seen on the forum over the last year, mostly it is the more experienced players who are stealing a lot. You did not try to qualify the responders in any way. You have also not told us what the purpose of the poll is? Is there some technicality you are investigating or is this just for interest? You need to bear in mind who is responding.

I don't post my own figures as they are included in the poll, this thread is not about what my personal figures are, why would I even want to discuss them? And who cares if I am guessing or not? I merely expressed an opinion, or do you personally invest your ego in every one of your post "babies"?

[helpmeout]

I run at 47.8% at 15/30 full (yeah i know not the same lol).

At 10/20 6max around 30% or so. I dont see any need to steal at 40+ in loose games.

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
51 votes and poll so far proved useless, as reults to widespread

[/ QUOTE ]

"Results too widespread"? What are you saying? If they are widespread they are widespread, and it reflects the general populous.

Suggest if you want to run a poll you need to filter the responders by placing conditions, such as $5/$10 (as this appears to be what you are setting up for). Getting figures for $10/$20 when you intend to use them for $5/$10 is not sound analysis. You should also ask for respnder who have played a minimum number of hands and a minimum WR. Do you really want 9K hands at +0.01 BB/100?

Polls are difficult to extract useful info from. You might want to ask for steal numbers from CO and Button and WR from both positions as well (or rather, correlate the two by structuring the poll properly to show this). Start with Button, post a poll of steal % and BB/100 from the Button (min. 20K hands).

If you want to then go on to investigate some of the marginal hands then good, most of the hands are easily derived from their mathematical chance of winning (just be sure to incorporate a decent margin to cover rake and still give a decent WR). You can work on blind steal from first principles (i.e. math) as it will be HU the majority of the time, and 3-way is still not too much of a problem.

Very opponent dependent, I say again. Bald % tells you a little but cannot even begin to allow the development of correct strategy. You must start from first principles, then consider the marginal hands and how they play post-flop against different opponents. Some play better will callers (and can/should in fact be limped <shock>), others you will need a high no-flop %. Sorry to hammer this, but you would be better to select a particular group of hands (such as mid-suited connector or 1-gappers) and work things out from there.

Inch-by-inch life is a cinch, yard by yard life is hard.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
why would I even want to discuss them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you want to improve your game.

Why else are you posting here?

[Silverback]

you think to much,

ever heard of bullet points, might save you some time.

[Silverback]

Naphand, I'll take what info I can from the poll, and comments in the thread,
You are good at stating the obvious, and its so boring, like you looked up donk in other thread please go look up bullet points,

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone with a huge hand sample, +100K want to share what hands are and arent profitable blind stealers?????

[/ QUOTE ]

i make money open raising A2o from the button after 215,000 hands of 10/20 6 max and i could probably make more if i could find an occasional fold

i think the subjects a bit trite - its game/opponent dependant and if someone tells you they show a profit stealing with say 87s after 300,000 hands that doesnt mean you will

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
i make money open raising A2o from the button after 215,000 hands of 10/20 6 max and i could probably make more if i could find an occasional fold


[/ QUOTE ]

What is your att to steal blinds % ?

[ QUOTE ]
i think the subjects a bit trite - its game/opponent dependant and if someone tells you they show a profit stealing with say 87s after 300,000 hands that doesnt mean you will

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I stated all this myself, also theres alot worse hands people steal with than 87s, and I wasnt asking for profit on specific hands,

It was just an area of my play I was looking into, hopefully this poll with other research will help me draw my own conclusions.

Obviously better players may play and steal with more hands, also they are playing at higher levels, rakes less of a factor and no doubt blind stealing with more hands more profiable,

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to always keep in mind that there is a big middle ground (like hands that get you from 30% steals to 40%) where folks who play well post flop (and esp HU w/ position) can make money but others may not. And if you look at the folks in the past who advocate high steal rates, these are them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously better players may play and steal with more hands, also they are playing at higher levels, rakes less of a factor and no doubt blind stealing with more hands more profiable,

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your att to steal blinds % ?

[/ QUOTE ]

last 17,000 hands of 10/20 its 39.8% - seems i have loosened up recently - i blame nate

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously better players may play and steal with more hands, also they are playing at higher levels, rakes less of a factor and no doubt blind stealing with more hands more profiable

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps we are saying the same thing but i'm not sure - i think applying a prescriptive standard to what to steal with is a good way to lose (except that you should always open raise A2o on the button) - if you cant see the value in the hand your choosing to steal with then dont do it - if you think you dont steal with an optimal number of hands then working at spotting the spots not the hands seems a better plan to me

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[TJD]

Raise first into pot from CO; Button or SB

EXCEPT that if it is HU then the raise from the SB is NOT considered by PT to be a steal

trevor

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
i make money open raising A2o from the button after 215,000 hands of 10/20 6 max and i could probably make more if i could find an occasional fold

i think the subjects a bit trite - its game/opponent dependant and if someone tells you they show a profit stealing with say 87s after 300,000 hands that doesnt mean you will

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course stealing is playerdependent but some1 stealing 40% will have a lot of autoraises that some1 stealing 25% will fold if they play at same level (lets say 10/20 Party P).

This subject isnt very well covered in the literature so its worth discussing.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course stealing is playerdependent but some1 stealing 40% will have a lot of autoraises that some1 stealing 25% will fold if they play at same level (lets say 10/20 Party P)

[/ QUOTE ]

folded to me on the button i would find it hard to fold 108s - anything above or equal to low suited semi connectors, grubby offsuit kings, and suited queens that dont have a 2, 3, or 4 with them (usually) is a chance

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[kiddo]

Im stealing a bit above 32% at 10/20 party poker and on button I would normally raise 76s, 97s, any A, K7, Q8, J8,K5s, 98o, 44... something like that... but of course playerdependent.... so if u ar on 40% u must raise a lower then T8s?

[Silverback]

One respected player told me the following marginal
blind steals,

Player dependant blind steals:
From CO:
22-44
A7-A6
K9,QT,Q9,JT,J9,T9,


button:
Ax,
K9-K4,
Kxs,
Qxs,
J4s up
any 2 cards 7 or higher,

What you think to any of these?

[kiddo]

yep, a good list.

CO looks like mine, (I dont like 33 and 22.) Button is a bit more aggressive then I play. I would often fold weak Qxs and weak Jxs and the worst hands with 2 cards above 7. But I steal much more today then I did 3-4 months ago so who knows where I will be in another 6 months?

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
But I steal much more today then I did 3-4 months ago so who knows where I will be in another 6 months?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you steal more? I know recently you havent run to well, you said breakeven or loss over 30k hands, this was few weeks ago some hopefully you are doing well now, but could changes in your play have contributed to this poor run?

[kiddo]

Nope, my change in blindsplay got nothing to do with bad run (but it started when I changed my blinds play).

Some posters at this forum convinced me I played to tight in the blinds and was stealing 2 little. There are old posts about it. (search for posts by NIKLA)

I been on the bad run of my life but last 3 weeks are good. The only one who is happier then me is my wife who got a little tired of hearing about how I got "rivered on the flop" every day. She also got a little bit tired of me yelling and throwing things around. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[wheelz]

I've started stealing more because party players are baaaaaad.

[naphand]

Do you think at all?

Your posts are indicative of an individual who has great difficulty coping with anything more complex than 1 or 2 simple ideas.

How can you possibly say the results are "too widespread"? Too widespread for what? your understanding of poker?

I can recommend some good books on learning to think for yourself. I really think you should try, rather than trying to get the forum to spoon-feed you and then throwing your dummy out of the pram when someone criticises you.

[naphand]

Am I stating the obvious? The only thing obvious about your post/s is the lack of thought behind them. If you are into looking up words try "vacuous".

[naphand]

This thread is unlikely to improve my understanding of blind play, it contains no strategy. A series of numbers representing the proportion of hands a few players are "stealing" with has about as much value as spitting in the wind.

I am posting here Kiddo, in an attempt to take this thread beyond "yet another stat post". While the subject of stealing is interesting and important, this thread is nothing more than a series of numbers. You find that useful do you?

Improving my game will NOT come about as a result of discussing my numbers. You know this.

[naphand]

Silverback, you sound more and more like "excel" with every post. Try thinking for yourself.

[kiddo]

You write a lot of good posts but u should really try to not do so many "u are so stupid not understanding simple arguments blah blah blah".

People get angry and it gives you nothing. Stop posting when you arent interested in what is discussed (like in this thread).

[naphand]

I am interested in discussing blinds Kiddo, as you must know. I responded to Silverback with suggestions for getting more useful info from polls, rather than just bland figures. Posting a series of numbers improved no-ones game, so I have no interest in posting numbers. Is that so hard to understand?

I conducted some polls a while back and it is actually quite difficult to get anything meaningful from them. Go look at how he responded to my suggestions and ask yourself if he was even trying to be constructive. If he wants to respond like that, he will get responses in kind. I've just eaten chips.

[naphand]

The point I was making here, Silverback, was not that the post was a waste of time as not enough people had responded (97 is a pretty decent number now) but that you were drawing conclusions from the very few responders. You had posted:

[ QUOTE ]
More posters than I imagined are in the 40% region...

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on a handful of responses. Do you see?

And as for the never posting stats, I made a post a long time ago about this, at a time when the forum was infected with endless stat posts. As was agreed at the time, it is better to get the strategy right and let the numbers look after themselves.

Talking about stats is useful when it is helping us to learn what they mean, but lot of posters pump out numbers hoping to find solutions to strategical problems. Someone even said "if you align yours stats with the good players...".

Talking numbers is not what its about, it is the strategy behind the numbers. YES I KNOW this is "obvious" but despite how obvious it is, people would rather compare numbers than discuss how they are created.

Another obvious point: there is no point in trying to steal a lot of hands, say 40+%, if your post-flop game means you are going to lose money, or otherwise make too many mistakes.

My advice would be to look at particular hands, learn how to play them and then move onto some more hands. This is a piecemeal approach, but one which gives you a lot of control AND understanding. It is preferable IMO to all-out war.

Sufficiently bulleted for you?

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
you think to much,

ever heard of bullet points, might save you some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was a genuine suggestion, you waffle on alot.

Alot of expert player in this forum hit the nail on the head with 1 sentence, I have never or rarely seen you do this.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
The point I was making here, Silverback, was not that the post was a waste of time as not enough people had responded (97 is a pretty decent number now)

[/ QUOTE ]


Why do you think I keep reply to posts in this thread?

To keep it alive and get a decent number of votes!

[ QUOTE ]
My advice would be to look at particular hands, learn how to play them and then move onto some more hands. This is a piecemeal approach, but one which gives you a lot of control AND understanding. It is preferable IMO to all-out war.


[/ QUOTE ]

I explore the limits, and if 45% is the limit then I would not jump from 30 -45 overnight, I would of course add in hands slowly,

Sometimes I think you assume all posters are stupid,

My aim in this thread was to explore att to steal blinds, and compare to my game and see where I stand and find out if Im missing out or overplaying or whatever my conclusion will be.

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
you waffle on alot

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true.

Part of the reason for this is I like to explore thinking behind decisions and if there is some flaw in my logic then a 1-liner simply won't highlight it, it will just be wrong.

I take your point though, and as you can see, I am resorting to bullet points at every opportunity.

When looking at a particular strategy question it seems to me there are a helluva lot of things to think about. The logic of one play is built on what went before, and so on. It gets complicated.

A lot of my posts are not aimed at the large majority of skim-readers who look for simple solutions, they are an attempt to improve my understanding and perhaps get some of the deeper-thinkers to explore ideas.

No-one becomes a great player by folowing a list of rules. Much thinking time is required. If people want simple solutions there are plenty in the archives, just about everything that could be ruled has been.

The deeper you look into poker, the deeper it seems to get, like "wookey hole".

As for stupidity, I try not to assume. But I confess my style is somewhat uncompromising (blame rgp) and does get peoples backs up. I am also not very good at apologising either. As I get older I am sure to mellow...

[naphand]

There is a little trick that can get your posts to the top of the pile without posting any reply. If you are nice to me I might just tell you what it is. If you want proof I will give you a demonstration, pick any post from the last weeks anywhere on the list, and I will get it on to the top without saying anything. What could be more tempting than that? Naphand saying nothing... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Silverback]

Yes sure I would like to know the little trick, it would save me posting replies just for the sake of keeping a thread alive, which is very useful when doing a poll, as I would never have got over 100 votes otherwise.

Go ahead and get this post to the top,

Basic three-handed strategy question (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2462918&page=4&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

by poster juggernaut Basic three-handed strategy question

Then if possible please let me know the trick, via forum or PM,

[ QUOTE ]
If you are nice to me I might just tell you what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

How nice do I have to be? You dont seem like a guy who likes nice anyway.

Hmmmmm, had a think and anything I would have said seemed like ass licking, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, and Im one for that,

[naphand]

Yuk. Trick question. Job done.

Go see the post requested sitting at the top... /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

EDIT; There are no replies at the moment (check time stamp for this post) but someone may reply, as they tend to do for posts that are at the top of the list. Hopefully you see before this happens.

[Silverback]

Well i missed it by a few mins,

somone already replied,

so how is it done?

[naphand]

I will PM you.

Oh look, what is at the top again... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif