Your thoughts on how I handled this 67o please. [Archive]

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KSOT

05-22-2005, 04:32 AM

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (9 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Since I was in EP, I was planning to checkraise the flop hoping to drive some people out, but as you can see, it was the person to the left of me who bet out, so raising him wouldn't get anyone else to fold. Betting on the turn was a bad idea I suppose, but I was hoping the original bettor would raise me to drive the rest out. Should I have checked again there and hope he checked behind me so I could possibly CR someone else? I really had no clue what to do once the turn came. Maybe raising the flop and then betting the turn would've been a better idea. At least they'd know I was strong. What do you think?

moot

05-22-2005, 04:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but as you can see, it was the person to the left of me who bet out, so raising him wouldn't get anyone else to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about raising because you have the best hand? And many people are calling with garbage.

I would have just come out swinging on the flop. I don't hate trying for the check-raise here but I don't see why we're not trapping the field when UTG bets. So the check raise failed, that's still no excuse not to push our edge. Plan A failed so move on to Plan B. Raise the flop and come out firing on the turn. And hope for the best, because there's no way to protect the hand anymore so we might as well see to it that the weaker hands are paying. The decent ones aren't going anywhere.

I like the river fold.

That's how I see it anyway.

irishpint

05-22-2005, 04:42 AM

i feel like you had a lot of better routes on this one.

1. check/raise the flop even though the bet is right after you. no one will fold (unless it gets 3bet maybe) which is OK, since u have such a strong hand right now. since you didnt id check/raise the turn rather than being first and betting (although perhaps you were hoping the flop bettor would raise and knock them out?)

2. bet the flop!

looks like someone hit their straight. i dont know that we could have done anything to protect our hand though.

xenthebrain

05-22-2005, 04:48 AM

Bet the flop yourself. Let someone with Ax protect his hand.
As you played it I would raise the flop anyway, if its not to protect your hand it's for value. You have a big edge here.

The turnbet is fine.

I think the riverfold is good, though I don't know if I could fold two pair in this big pot, even for two more.

KSOT

05-22-2005, 05:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop and come out firing on the turn. And hope for the best, because there's no way to protect the hand anymore so we might as well see to it that the weaker hands are paying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's about time for me to re-read small stakes hold 'em, because I remember a section in there that addressed this problem. I remember it saying NOT to do the check-raise if it's the person to the left of you who bet because it wouldn't protect your hand. I could be wrong about that though and I don't remember what it said to do after...

dozer

05-22-2005, 05:40 AM

had almost exactly the same situation come up today..
this is how I played it.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ts 7h (two pair, tens and sevens).
UTG+1 has Ac 9c (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 14.50 BB. 

So my answer is BET/BET and BET again.

your river fold was fine.

kirkt

05-22-2005, 06:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I remember it saying NOT to do the check-raise if it's the person to the left of you who bet because it wouldn't protect your hand. I could be wrong about that though and I don't remember what it said to do after...

[/ QUOTE ]

So IMO, you are probably the favorite and at least getting odds to bet this hand until the river. Isolating would be nice, but you're thinking in terms of the second best hand. You [likely] have the best hand! Bet or check-raise for value! Bet and raise that flop! You were way ahead of any caller and most likely any bettor. Turn and river play are fine.

Thinking about the flop- 9 handed. What is this, 3/6 in a casino? I would not mind a check raise, but what I want most is to three bet. This means I lead out with a bet and hope someone else has the sense to raise with Ax. The flop's got crappy texture and you can very easily punish some weak aces and some gut shots for sticking around. You'll lose quite a bit, but win more.

pp. 125-126 discusses how two pairs look in these tables. Yours is about halfway between the two examples given the texture of the flop, the chips in the middle, and your position.

therockofgibraltar

05-22-2005, 06:42 AM

If I have understood correctly you must win over 1/5 to be able to raise for value on the flop. If so, raise! You surely will win more often than that. Everything else is good.

therockofgibraltar

05-22-2005, 06:45 AM

this UTG+1 was clever. Did't raise but kept milking you and others.

When should you play this passive and milk?? I usually do this only HU or 3-handed if I have position and think the aggressive bettor will fold (or check-fold on turn or river) if I raise.

Roy Cooke had a great article about this in Cardplayer. Maybe I should reread it.