KK hand, flop line.

[Trix]

SB is very Aggro, somewhat weak and can give up bluffs in weird spots. Calls flop light vs steals heads up.
His stats are: 42/15/2.2 in 5x hands.

CO is 70/6/0.6 in 15x hands. Note says Loose-Passive.
I dont think he will bet a J on the flop.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls...

[Lmn55d]

hmm, I think I like it. the pot isn't too huge so protection against sb isn't a big issue since you have an overpair (if he has three ace outs he's calling incorrectly). You should probably get a raise in against CO depending on how the hand plays out. If sb folds flop/turn, raising the river if no ace or club comes sounds good.

[Trix]

SB folds, Turn is a non club 8. He bets again and I raise, ye ?

[Lmn55d]

if you think he will follow through on the river with a bluff I would raise the river. Also he might fold a 4 to a raise when he probably would either bet/call, bet/fold, or check/call the river. Also you will be less likely to be 3bet on the river.

[krishanleong]

I like a call and raise the turn. Might keep the 3rd person in for a bet and punishes silly bluffers/semibluffers.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
SB folds, Turn is a non club 8. He bets again and I raise, ye ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm not sure the fact that it's a non-club matters. Raise!

Krishan

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
SB folds, Turn is a non club 8. He bets again and I raise, ye ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me likey. Easy fold to a 3-bet, no?

[TStoneMBD]

calling the flop and raising the turn is my standard line here

[Lmn55d]

why do you think raising the turn is better than raising the river?

[TStoneMBD]

many players check-call the river here when they would have called your turn raise and river bet. an overcard to the 8 could fall as well and kill your action. when do you ever see a player fold to a turn raise when he would have check-called the river?

only arguement is that you think villain is less likely to reraise you on the river with an open set than if you raise him on the turn, but its not a very good one imo.

there is also a flush draw out there and its very possible that villain will check-fold the river if he misses the draw.

[Lmn55d]

good points. What do you do if he 3bets the turn?

[TStoneMBD]

unless i have a strong read i call down

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
if he has three ace outs he's calling incorrectly

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not really true. There are 9 SB in the pot after you call. Add 4 BB from CO and Hero for the turn and river and you get 17 SB. If his ace outs are clean he does have the implied odds to call the flop. The A /images/graemlins/club.gif would make this even clearer.

This is a typical example of how a pot can seem small on the flop, but it isn't when you add up all the potential losses a suckout would cost you. If I were SB I would have to worry that my ace was drawing dead. But Hero can see that it is probably good and that calling one bet is likely not a mistake.

[StellarWind]

I don't see SB calling the flop without a pair or a flush draw. If he has a pair I expect him to put you on overcards and call two bets. As I noted in another post, it is probably not a mistake for him to call one bet with an ace. It is not a big mistake for him to call with a pocket pair. But calling two bets with a pocket pair would be a big mistake that would make you a lot of money.

SB's presence in the hand is a reason to raise the flop. However most of the time he will quietly fold no matter what you do. In that case you want to exploit your read on CO and trap him for 2 BB on the turn.

I think raising the flop and waiting until the turn are both reasonable. If I was more worried about CO having a jack I would raise the flop. Extra action from CO isn't as valuable when I often lose so I focus on making money off of SB.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
SB folds, Turn is a non club 8. He bets again and I raise, ye ?

[/ QUOTE ]

not even. I wait till the river. You are basically pulling out your cock and slapping him over the head and yelling "I HAVE A JACK!!!" (at least thats how it will look to him). So hes just going to dump all his bluffs. Hes very aggro, so let him bet the river too.

[wheelz]

The guy betting is the 70/6/0.6

not exactly "aggro" /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy betting is the 70/6/0.6

not exactly "aggro" /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, well that just sucks then.

uhm...I guess I raise turn then, since he will call down with any small PP or X4 he has, but most likely wusses out and not bets the river after you call both flop and turn. And against this guy you can toss to the 3 bet.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
it is probably not a mistake for him to call one bet with an ace

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he folded every time he didn´t hit an ace on the turn, but he may pair his kicker, the 4 may pair, he may hit a flushdraw with the kicker or he may decide that A-high maybe is good or that he will win some money if the 8, 4 or his kicker pairs, due to split pot.

Since he is very aggro it´s also posible that he will make some kind of move.


[ QUOTE ]
I don't see SB calling the flop without a pair or a flush draw. If he has a pair I expect him to put you on overcards and call two bets

[/ QUOTE ]

At the price he gets there is a pretty good chance that he will call with something like 1 overcard and a backdoor draw, A-high or backdoorstraight and backdoorflush.

I agree with the rest though.

[ QUOTE ]
It is not a big mistake for him to call with a pocket pair. But calling two bets with a pocket pair would be a big mistake that would make you a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont think 2 bets will go in anyway if I flatcall and he has a pair ?

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising the flop and waiting until the turn are both reasonable. If I was more worried about CO having a jack I would raise the flop. Extra action from CO isn't as valuable when I often lose so I focus on making money off of SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically these guys will slowplay their trips, so I´m not very worried when he bets out.

I dont think raising makes you more money from the SB. If we call, SB raises, and CO 3bets, then we have a safe fold due to his passiveness, things gets more tricky when HU.

[Trix]

I think raising turn is better when he is paired, I´m not sure it matters if he has a flushdraw, as this is a vpip 70 guy you can´t really expect him to play very well and if he somehow decided that he wanted to bluff at this pot, you then think he will give it up on the river ?

I agree that he may check-call the river with 33 or another weak pair.

When he is just taking a weird stab at the pot with no draw, it´s better to call and give him a chance to bluff again or catch enough to call. I just didn´t think he would do that, but I guess it´s posible.

If he can lay down a pair to a turnraise, it´s also better to wait till the river as he have very few when behind.


I feel pretty good about the flop call, but still not sure whether it´s best to call or raise the turn.

I think his flop bet will be a weak pair often, I just didn´t expect him to fold it, if it´s what he had. It could be something random, but then calling is better aswell.

Raising do look very strong in this spot as it´s how many of these guys would play it if they had the Jack, so that´s another reason to wait till the river.

[Trix]

He folded to the turnraise, but I´m still not sure whether it´s better to flatcall.