When the Board Trips on the Turn

[toss]

Against an unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>...

Its my understanding that Party Players go donk when the board trips. I'm folding after he raises, but would a better line be to check the turn and call most rivers?

[MattC]

i think you'd need at the very minimum an ace to do that, wouldn't you agree?

[Nick Royale]

Party players goes donk whenever they feel like it. I feel I'm facing these situaton where I'm getting check/raised on the turn all the time, cursing myself for not taking the freecard (these situations often occurs when the board is paired as well). But still I keep betting the turns. This is one of my leaks. I need to learn when to take turn freecards, and that not an easy thing to learn. You have to evaluate the texture of the board to place your opponent on a hand. If he might be on a draw your hand has showdown value and if I put him on a draw I use to bet the turn and check the river and win UI pretty often (this way I don't risk getting bluffed on the river when holding a hand with SD-value and make his hand pay while drawing). When I have a J/Q-high hand I feel comfortable in checking the turn and fold the river UI since my hand has low SD-value. It a complicated situation since you don't want to give a hand that would have folded to a turn bet a free card.

I guess I drifted from the subject, but I'm bet/folding this turn just like you did. It feels even more akward folding this when the board has three 8s since your K and J outs will often be good, but still that's my line.

[Nick Royale]

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i think you'd need at the very minimum an ace to do that, wouldn't you agree?

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K-high definately has SD-value if he checks the turn. I like betting the turn, though.

[toss]

Thanks dude, I was wondering if my turn bet was correct.

[Nick Royale]

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Thanks dude, I was wondering if my turn bet was correct.

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As you might noticed I'm pretty confused myself about this subject, but at least you got my opinion /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MattC]

it seems to me that the donk bet, if it is one, is a player who believes his ace high is good when the board trips like that. That's why i think it is best to have an ace to showdown here.

If you really think he is donking tho, perhaps a 3 bet would be in order?

[toss]

Lol, so the turn IS debateable. I'm still thinking bet/folding the turn is better since Ace-rag and any pocket pair beats me.

[Nick Royale]

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it seems to me that the donk bet, if it is one, is a player who believes his ace high is good when the board trips like that. That's why i think it is best to have an ace to showdown here.


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The donk isn't betting, he's check/raising. If hero checks the turn he wouldn't know the donk was planning to check/raise the turn so hero has to call the river bet.

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If you really think he is donking tho, perhaps a 3 bet would be in order?

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3-betting a check/raise here seems like spewing to me. I would need really good read to 3-bet bluff him...

[Nick Royale]

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Lol, so the turn IS debateable. I'm still thinking bet/folding the turn is better since Ace-rag and any pocket pair beats me.

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I agree, without a read I believe the bet/fold line is standard here. You'll be ahead most often with K kicker and we don't want to give a freecard to a worse hand.

[MattC]

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it seems to me that the donk bet, if it is one, is a player who believes his ace high is good when the board trips like that. That's why i think it is best to have an ace to showdown here.


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The donk isn't betting, he's check/raising. If hero checks the turn he wouldn't know the donk was planning to check/raise the turn so hero has to call the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i didnt mean to say betting before, i meant check raise. But what i said before i still stand by.

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If you really think he is donking tho, perhaps a 3 bet would be in order?

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3-betting a check/raise here seems like spewing to me. I would need really good read to 3-bet bluff him...

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Personally, I take the bet/fold line. But the whole idea were discussing is that if we bet the turn here and the other player check raises, that it is a donkey checkraise. That's our read on his play. So, by proposing the idea of a 3bet im thinking that if it is a donkey check raise then we have quite a bit of fold equity. Maybe he will fold a better but weaker hand, something like ace high or 22. And if he just calls, it will most likely let us showdown without having to pay anymore. And if he caps, well i think its pretty safe to assume were not in good shape. I agree in that it defintely looks like chip spewing, but were reading that our hand has a very good chance of being best here, in which case a 3bet is +EV if that were true.

[toss]

I'd need a very good read if I want to 3-bet the turn like that.

[Catt]

I think if you're going to bet the turn, you ought to call the raise. When it comes back to you, you're getting 7+:1 to call. I think you can count on either a K or J to probably win and do no worse than chop; not to mention that this could be a donk making a donky move and there is a chance that your K-high is actually good (albeit slim). Still, unless you're crediting him with an 8, 6 outs seems enough to call getting 7+:1 in this spot.

[sweetjazz]

If the opponent is quite aggressive, then I think checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet UI is a good line. This is because he may bluff us off the best hand, and he is likely to bluff at the river with hands we beat.

This outweighs the possibility that he is behind on the turn but improves to beat us; this is because this does not happen too often, the pot is small, and checking behind also allows us to occassionally improve when we are the one who is trailing.

Against a passive opponent, bet/fold seems clearly right.

What the cutoff is where it becomes close, I don't really have a good sense for.

[Catt]

Anybody want to lay out why folding to the C/R is the right play here after we've bet the turn (I favor checking the turn, BTW)?

We're getting 7:1 (straight pot odds) to see the river and unless we think there is a decent chance that Villain has an 8, we have the odds to draw towards filling up (unless we think Villain limped QQ or AA). Even if Villain is holding a pocket pair, he have the odds to draw, no?

[sweetjazz]

In addition to the possibility that the villain does have an 8 (which will cost us 3 bets on the river), he could also have a K or a J, in which case we only have 4 outs (3 to the best hand and 2 to a split). I'm assuming you're folding the river UI here.

While unlikely, villain could also be a complete dolt and have JJ - AA here.

It's probably splitting hairs whether to call or fold to a CR on the turn. I think checking the turn is best against most players.

[Nick Royale]

I think that if OP had cut his post like this the responses had been different. I can see calling the turn raise (even though I still prefer folding), but I can't see checking the turn. Most often we have the best hand. Giving a freecard would be bad here IMO.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero...

[Catt]

If Villain has the case 8, we're in trouble. If he has KK, JJ, AK, or AJ, we're in trouble. I would argue however that all these hands (less the case 8) are very unlikely given the hand action. If Villain has only a Kx or a Jx, then we are folding the best (chopping) hand which is a catastrophe, especially since we've got a good-sized pot on the line. If Villain has an Ax, x3, or any PP, we have adequate odds to draw without even considering any bets we might pick up on the river when we hit. I really feel like the "fold to the C/R advice" is based on the emotion of the scary board and the fact that we were raised. People take shots like this -- in fact, I would think that Villain's C/R is a decent play (bluff) even he he has bupkus, because so many will fold when faced with aggression on this board -- if Hero folds 40% of the time, Villain scoops the pot; and if Hero calls, Villain still likely has outs to the win.

Nick - there might have been more votes to bet if the hand was posted as you suggested, but I still prefer checking here since we act last. I'll take a showdown UI with K-high and of course bet if I hit on the river. If I were first to act HU on this turn, I would prefer betting here as a semi-bluff / possibly betting the best hand.

[Nick Royale]

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Nick - there might have been more votes to bet if the hand was posted as you suggested, but I still prefer checking here since we act last. I'll take a showdown UI with K-high and of course bet if I hit on the river. If I were first to act HU on this turn, I would prefer betting here as a semi-bluff / possibly betting the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Readless I'm betting. I think we're giving a hand with 6 outs which would have folded to a turn bet a free card way more often than we are folding to a check/raise having 6 outs.

EDIT: I don't think a check on the turn induce a bluff from a worse hand often enough to compensate and most of the time when we're getting called on the turn the bet was for value. But we will not value bet this hand on the river and I don't think we beat villain very often when he bets the river.