4/8 when you think you're beat.

[bholdr]

I was playing in a game at parkers casino in shoreline washingto last week and i played this hand that i think i probably should've laid down... live play has been giving me trouble, i'm stuck about $250 over the course of my first ten or so sessions (which is still slightly beating the rake, i suppose, but beating the rake is not my goal) and it's yet to 'click' for me like online has. so, was this a bad play or standard:

4/8 limit hold 'em:

UTG+1 player raises,
I look down and see AA, and three bet it,
the player to my left caps
fold to UTG+1, who calls,
I call.

about 7BB in the pot

flop: Q 8 6 rainbow

UTG+1 bets,
I raise,
other player folds.
UTG+1 three bets,
I decide he probably has a set of Queens and call anyway because i couldn't justify a laydown in case he had AQ.

10BB pot

turn: brick, he bets, I call

River: brick, he bets, I call

so what do you think? should i have folded to the three bet on the flop, or is calling this down with an overpair and a non-threatening board standard in a 4/8 game? am i a fish?


results in white: <font color="white">pocket queens, knew it. </font>

[Nick C]

I wouldn't have folded either.

[WillMagic]

Can you eliminate KK from UTG+1's range?

Didn't think so.

You can't lay down here.

Will

[The Goober]

I can't imagine playing it any other way. Even if you knew he was really passive, he could still play KK this way. With the right read, you could raise the turn or the river - a lot players in this game like to go nuts pre-flop once the raising starts, so they won't be giving you much credit for your PF 3-bet.

BTW, if you were there in the evening, I was probably there as well. If you ever see a guy at Parker's with greasy hair, glasses, and a black t-shirt, drop me a 'sup bro, or brown trout, or whatever the code word is these days. I've always wondered if any of the parker's regulars are 2+2ers.

[thejameser]

the key is when you "think" you are beat. you are good here enough to call down, which is what you did, and IMO was the right play. reads would help but without them I am definitely calling down for a showdown. it is a fundamental catastrophe to lay down the winner, and besides you don't want people thinking you are easy to push off of a hand. ESPECIALLY 4/8 LIVE!

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine playing it any other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can.

What's all this "You have to call it down" junk? The debate here isn't whether to fold or call down, it's whether to four-bet the flop or wait for the turn to pop it again. There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to and three bets on the small street is not enough to convince me that the villain has it.

SpaceAce

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine playing it any other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can.

What's all this "You have to call it down" junk? The debate here isn't whether to fold or call down, it's whether to four-bet the flop or wait for the turn to pop it again. There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to and three bets on the small street is not enough to convince me that the villain has it.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you anti-weak tight hero. What is going on around here? When did Small Stakes turn into the "I know I'm beat" forum?

I guess I would've lost more money because I would have either 4-bet the flop or raised the turn and called down further aggression.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine playing it any other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can.

What's all this "You have to call it down" junk? The debate here isn't whether to fold or call down, it's whether to four-bet the flop or wait for the turn to pop it again. There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to and three bets on the small street is not enough to convince me that the villain has it.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you anti-weak tight hero. What is going on around here? When did Small Stakes turn into the "I know I'm beat" forum?

I guess I would've lost more money because I would have either 4-bet the flop or raised the turn and called down further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Parker's Casino, but I will say that live Small Stakes is not at all like online at the same limits.

In my B&amp;M, at 3/6, you'll find some games where some people won't raise preflop without AA/KK (and sometimes not even then), and you'll find games where people won't raise postflop without two pair or better.

I've seen games where people will raise (or limp) preflop with AA and then check behind on the turn after getting called on the flop. Then, if no one bets into them on the river, maybe they'll muster up the nerve to make a value bet.

There are of course also LAGgy live small-stakes games, but in my experience they're the exception.

Live small stakes and online small stakes are not the same at all.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know Parker's Casino, but I will say that live Small Stakes is not at all like online at the same limits.


[/ QUOTE ]

I play a lot of live low limit (under $15/$30) poker and only against the most incredibly rocky of opponents would I not put in more bets in this situation. In fact, that's purely hypothetical because I'm not sure that I have yet been in this situation and not gotten more bets in if my opponents would let me.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

Thank you anti-weak tight hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do what I can /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpaceAce

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't know Parker's Casino, but I will say that live Small Stakes is not at all like online at the same limits.


[/ QUOTE ]

I play a lot of live low limit (under $15/$30) poker and only against the most incredibly rocky of opponents would I not put in more bets in this situation. In fact, that's purely hypothetical because I'm not sure that I have yet been in this situation and not gotten more bets in if my opponents would let me.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not talking about rocks. I'm talking about loose-passive players who will call with any hope of winning but will only actually 3-bet the flop with a complete monster.

Look. I'm speaking of 3/6 Harrah's New Orleans, and I don't know how typical that is. But I have before check/3-bet the flop with a royal flush draw, after which the turn and river were both checked through multiway and my unimproved ace-high lost to a flopped top two pair.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine playing it any other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can.

What's all this "You have to call it down" junk? The debate here isn't whether to fold or call down, it's whether to four-bet the flop or wait for the turn to pop it again. There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to and three bets on the small street is not enough to convince me that the villain has it.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I did say that I could see popping the turn with the right read (which contradicts my first sentence, I know). As other's have said, at a live 4-8 game there are players who will play very, very passively here and would never bet and 3-bet without at least two pair.

I think the biggest problem with your logic is you say "There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to". Why would you assume that villian has a reasonable hand? I wouldn't be surprised to see villian turn over 88, 66, or even something like Q8 for two pair.

[Grendel]

I'd play it the same way.

Folding is out of the question. Whether you think you're good enough to raise the turn/river is probably read-dependent, but if typical play is really as passive as described, then calling down is fine.

-Grendel

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the biggest problem with your logic is you say "There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to". Why would you assume that villian has a reasonable hand? I wouldn't be surprised to see villian turn over 88, 66, or even something like Q8 for two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the action, the villain is going to have the other two sets rarely enough for it to have little or no impact on your decision making. Unless you have a specific reason to think the villain is unreasonable, it's silly to worry that he played a small pair like that before the flop. Yes, sometimes he will have something ridiculous but not often enough to slow you down without putting in at least one more bet.

SpaceAce

[rmarotti]

I'm capping this flop.

[Jonathan]

I think you played it perefectly.
You definitely cannot lay down AA to a 3 bet on
this flop.

Suerte,
Jonathan

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine playing it any other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can.

What's all this "You have to call it down" junk? The debate here isn't whether to fold or call down, it's whether to four-bet the flop or wait for the turn to pop it again. There is exactly one reasonable hand Hero is losing to and three bets on the small street is not enough to convince me that the villain has it.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

I made my initial remarks before reading any of the others,
but now that I read SpaceAge's reply, I agree with him.
You should reraise either on the flop or the turn.

Suerte,
Jonathan

[Petteri]

TAG could play AA, KK, QQ, AQs, AQ and KQs like UTG+1.

You cannot say he has more than pair of queens, so call it down. Folding is timid play.