Mini step 5 hand, call here?

[lacky]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t3531)
SB (t1338)
Hero (t1330)
UTG (t3331)
MP (t470)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

SB is all-In [1188], Hero calls all-in

[burgi]

I think that I would fold here! I expect SB to have at least an A with something, so SB would be a small favorite. Would you have pushed yourself, different story! (you wouldn't be able to decide of course if SB calls or not, but at least you are putting preasure on SB)

[smcannon]

No way I'm calling that. He's pretty even with you and the both of you are waiting for the shortie to go bye bye. I would imagine he would start playing more speculative hands when it's down to four.

[lacky]

well, the diference between 5th and 4th is very minor here, $200 vs $300, so everyone is still playing for 1st, $2k, or 2nd, $1k. I'm really not interested in holding on for 4th, I'm wanting the best chance to win. So, in that context, call or fold?

[burgi]

If you play to win: call! If you are behind, then only marginally and with T2600 you are already doing much better and are basically guaranteed 3rd.

[EverettKings]

It would be criminal to fold this.

You're getting 1600:1000 or 1.6:1 pot odds. The guy would be correct to push with a huge range of hands, especially if he thinks you'll try and hold on until the short stack busts. Sure, he's somewhat likely to have an ace, but realize that KTs vs Ax (Where x < 10) you're about 46% to win the pot! Remember that he would also push hands like QJ and K8s. It would be a huge error to muck this, especially since you'd have zero fold equity if you mucked and you desperately need to accumulate chips if you want to make a run for first.

I'm guessing he turned over something like AJ and you didn't hit, but it was a good call.

-Kings

[The Yugoslavian]

From what I can remember of the prize structure...I'm pretty sure you gotta call this.

SB *should* push any two and likely is pushing close enough to it even if he doesn't realize this...

Yugoslav

[raptor517]

i would AUTOCALL here. this is the step 5 mini prize structure. 1st - 2k, 2nd - 1k, 3rd - 500, 4th - 300, 5th - 200. do you see why this is an autocall? i do. holla

[lastchance]

Clicks call almost immediately. SB is pushing with at least 70% of hands, and you've got KTs with only 4x BB. Easy, easy, easy call, horrible laydown.

[lacky]

Thanks guys. Just making sure my thinking was correct. I figured he would push nearly any 2 here (I would, and he was a good player) He had JJ and took me out, but that's not really important, which is why I left it out.

Steve

[raptor517]

lacky, if he flipped over JJ right there, it MIGHT even be a close play. MAYBE leaning towards fold, but its still close i think. just because the prize structure is so top heavy, you HAVE to play for first to make money in these mini steps. ok ok, if he flipped it over it might not be THAT close, but you get the point.. holla

[Blarg]

I guess I'm diverging with the opinions of some others, and perhaps it shows I clearly don't know what I'm talking about. But to me this seems very read-dependent.

Even with the best hand, you could still lose, and won't necessarily be a huge favorite. You're probably either effectively behind a little bit or ahead a little bit.

After this hand, if it's checked to you in the SB, you'll still have folding equity, and might win the blinds without a showdown. Same if you wait another hand till you are on the button.

If you feel the raiser is going to be raising every hand now that his chip stack is so low, you might as well make a stand now. But if not, you might be better off giving up an okay hand now to try a steal or two later. Heck, with a little luck, they won't even be steals; there's always at least some possibility you'll actually get a decent holding.

The way I see it, you could lose here with AA, or win next hand or the one after with 3-2 offsuit.

I think tactically some folks may be right saying it's an auto-call, but strategically, that doesn't seem as clear cut to me.

Okay, I'm ready to be ripped a new one now.

[raptor517]

ok, you are about to be ripped a new one. WHO CARES if you are behind here. i dont. the prize structure is SOOOO rigged towards first, that you have to play to win the whole time. that means taking a situation like this and using it to double up, even if you are behind. there is 450 dead chips out there. that can add nicely to your stack. read dependent doesnt really matter either. everyone that is worth have a salt grain is shoving AT LEAST 60% of their hands from the small blind. that alone makes K10s an AUTOCALL. tactically, strategically, analytically, whatever really. (like that? had the lly at the end). so anyways, this isnt a flame at all, just my neat lil way of saying that i call and try to suckout on JJ. BWAHAHAHHAHA. holla

[microbet]

As raptor says the payout changes the play a lot. I haven't played the steps at all, but if the players in these mini-step 5s are good, they will understand this and you will have less FE than you would in a 5-3-2 payout.

[curtains]

This is a brainless call. If you suggest folding you need to completely reexamine everything you think you know about poker.

btw this is also a very easy call in a normal 1-2-3 payout structure.

[lacky]

I thought so too. Then I pulled it up in eastbays program and it said fold against all but the mainiac. So, that and a horrible run lately had me paranoid enough to ask.

Steve

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
As raptor says the payout changes the play a lot. I haven't played the steps at all, but if the players in these mini-step 5s are good, they will understand this and you will have less FE than you would in a 5-3-2 payout.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I can see the effect of the prize structure.

I'm not used to considering that you do not need reads to know that people will be pushing with crap here.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, you are about to be ripped a new one. WHO CARES if you are behind here. i dont. the prize structure is SOOOO rigged towards first, that you have to play to win the whole time. that means taking a situation like this and using it to double up, even if you are behind. there is 450 dead chips out there. that can add nicely to your stack. read dependent doesnt really matter either. everyone that is worth have a salt grain is shoving AT LEAST 60% of their hands from the small blind. that alone makes K10s an AUTOCALL. tactically, strategically, analytically, whatever really. (like that? had the lly at the end). so anyways, this isnt a flame at all, just my neat lil way of saying that i call and try to suckout on JJ. BWAHAHAHHAHA. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't consider that there were no poor or mediocre players playing the steps. If I had, I would have responded differently. At my level, the last thing I'm used to being with is a table full of players you could count on all being good. I'm positive I've never sat at one of those yet, because of the low levels I play. I would be surprised if many of my tables had even more than half of the players having a decent grasp of the game.

Running the figures through eastbay's calc, I noted that with a range of any pair, any ace or king, Q9, JT, and T9 up, the EV difference in calling versus folding is 1.9%. With someone who won't play a jack or ten-high hand, it only goes down to 1.6%, but with someone pushing any two it goes up to 4.7%.

For someone who won't push a queen-high or less than a high king, the EV of calling plunges to -1.1%, but it sounds like I'm out of the loop on knowing that it's silly to worry about people having pushing standards this high at this level, in this situation.

What can I say, I'm used to getting called by 75-offsuit, often by the same guy who won't push ace-ten, so I space my opportunities out differently.

[curtains]

No one in the universe should be as tight as a "maniac" according to eastbays program, in that scenario.