Another killing-animals/morality thread

[Hermlord]

I love my cat. She is not my property, she is my friend. If someone were to kill my cat, intentionally, I would hunt them down. Then, not only would I kill them, I would inflict as much pain as I could in the process. Let me reiterate: I would go beyond "eye for an eye" and inflict a punishment beyond the crime itself. Why? Because I feel the intentionality of desiring to kill my cat counts as much as or more then the actual act; however this is conditional on actually committing the act.

Discuss.

[pshreck]

I highly doubt you would do any of those things, but I believe you think you would.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
I highly doubt you would do any of those things, but I believe you think you would.

[/ QUOTE ]

took the words right out of my mouth. perfect.

[Hermlord]

No, you are wrong. I would.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you are wrong. I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you sure wouldn't. Because then you would be convicted of murder and spend ~10 years an jail, which would make you an idiot.

[pshreck]

Me: [ QUOTE ]
but I believe you think you would.

[/ QUOTE ]

You:
[ QUOTE ]
No, you are wrong. I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is redundant.

[Hermlord]

No, you are wrong. I would.

I'm going to sleep soon, we can do this until then if you want.

[pshreck]

Here comes the question that makes me look like a jerk.

How old are you?

[Hermlord]

I'm 23.

[pshreck]

Ok, now you can go to sleep.

[Hermlord]

This was not the purpose of the thread, the purpose was to discuss whether the proposed course of action is right or wrong, morally. I do not really want to try to prove that I have the ability and will to act on my convictions. I especially did not want to get into some sort of dick-waving contest.

Wow, I forgot how frustrating these arguments can be. So here's a couple questions for you, Pshreck:

1) The obvious implication of your question is that I am too young to know what I'm talking about. Is that right? Either way, why don't you just say that instead of making snide little one-liners?

2) How could I possibly prove that I would or would not actually follow through? Talk about how I've killed people in the past? Well, I haven't thankfully, so it's really your word (about what I'm made of) vs. my word (about what I'm made of). I have spent many years asking that question, you have spent 10min with me on the Internet. OK, fine.

3) The world is filled with child soldiers, teenage suicide bombers, 12-year-olds that avenge their father's deaths (yes, that actually happens, it wasn't just made up for the movies). What exactly does age have to do with it, anyway?

4) What exactly were you hoping to get out of this exchange? You didn't address the morality of the question. Do you just like arguing? Are you really convinced you know something about me that I do not? That's possible but see question 2.

This took a while to type; maybe you've followed up in the interim.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
I love my cat. She is not my property, she is my friend. If someone were to kill my cat, intentionally, I would hunt them down. Then, not only would I kill them, I would inflict as much pain as I could in the process. Let me reiterate: I would go beyond "eye for an eye" and inflict a punishment beyond the crime itself. Why? Because I feel the intentionality of desiring to kill my cat counts as much as or more then the actual act; however this is conditional on actually committing the act.

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question has nothing to do with animals outside of the weirdness of your cat-affection. Your point is that you feel intention to kill is as important as the act of killing. You could replace "cat" with "sister" and still ask the same question.

[pshreck]

My over subtle argument (and Busters) basically imply that you have to be mentally insane to actually do what you said you would do. Morally wrong? On my judgement of morals, which I think is pretty close to most Americans, of course it is morally wrong. I dont think you are insane for thinking so highly of your cat, but I think there are millions of American males who think they would do the same thing if their girlfriend/wife/mother was murdered, but 99.9% of them wouldn't seriously attempt to murder the killer.

Do you now see my point?

[Hermlord]

Phoenix,

Yes you are right. I would do the same if a person I loved was killed with intentionality. I was interested if someone would make a distinction.

[Hermlord]

Pshreck,

I was not confused about your point. As I say above, I don't see how you can know this about me. Further, I think adherence to what I believe far supercedes the consequences to myself. Although, plenty of people get away with murder and I think I'm pretty smart, that's not the point.

You can argue that my punishment is itself unjust; that is fine. But I have no qualms accepting life in prison for my (hypothetical) actions. Though suicide would then become a viable option.

[pshreck]

Honestly Im not trying to be in a dick waving contest. But I think your posts are nothing more than internet induced ego/idea inflation. It happens to everyone (although not to the degree where they say they would kill for a cat, then consider suicide if they are convicted of a life imprisonment for doing so).

My point is that there is a connection between saneness and morality, and I think it is clear that your potential action is insane, and sign of a mentally unstable person, unable to judge real right and wrong. I think the ability to perform immoral actions comes from someone who can personal redefine the idea of morality, and this of course would be not only easy but almost neccesary for the mentally insane.

To reiterate what I said before though, I dont think you are insane for merely thinking you would avenge the death of your cat with murder. I think it is much more likely that when you are actually put to the question of performing this insane action, your brain would kick in and save you, as it probably has for millions of others who have had crazy ideas and didnt follow through with them.

[oreogod]

u need a pair of:

http://www.muchosucko.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Politics/bush_goggles.jpg

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you are wrong. I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

So 10 years of hiding in the laundry room at night, to avoid gay sex, for your cat? Hmmmmm.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I love my cat. She is not my property, she is my friend. If someone were to kill my cat, intentionally, I would hunt them down. Then, not only would I kill them, I would inflict as much pain as I could in the process. Let me reiterate: I would go beyond "eye for an eye" and inflict a punishment beyond the crime itself. Why? Because I feel the intentionality of desiring to kill my cat counts as much as or more then the actual act; however this is conditional on actually committing the act.

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize how immoral your behavior would be? If you would do this for your cat, I can't imagine what you would do for your mother/wife/daughter. Even an idiot can see how greatly destructive these actions would be for society, not to mention how destructive these actions would be for your own life.

Do you really believe that while sitting in jail for a decade, you'd never regret your actions?

[SCfuji]

i hate cats because i am allergic to them. i hope your cat gets RUN OVER BY A TRUCK.

[gorie]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7475469/

don't move to wisconsin.

[PoBoy321]

Haha, this just reminded me that a little while ago, I saw a missing cat sign hanging up in my library. Then two days later, there was a new sign next to the missing cat sign that said "Jason, Mittens was delicious," and had an arrow pointing to the other sign and a picture of a microwave with a cat in it. It was awesome.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still live with your mommy don't you?

[Hermlord]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still live with your mommy don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I have a small but dwindling hope that this thread will return to an actual discussion of the morality of the original scenario. How about posting your thoughts in addition to obvious one-liners about cats tasting good.

To be fair, Pshreck eventually did some of this, preceded by a lot of innuendo and evasion. But I know this is OOT, so proceed with the pablum...

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a small but dwindling hope that this thread will return to an actual discussion of the morality of the original scenario. How about posting your thoughts in addition to obvious one-liners about cats tasting good.

[/ QUOTE ]

It deteriorated so quickly because the original post was so ridiculously stupoid, and was so initially obvious that you're a raving wackjob, that no one could be bothered.

One liners about cat killing is really all this thread deserves.

edit: i hope someone buries fluffy alive up to his neck so he can be eaten alive by fireants.

[Hermlord]

OK, fair enough. I like the mature (because you're older and more mature, right?) deliberate goading that you actively went back and added.

So here's a new question: what would you consider to be a just and moral punishment for deliberately murdering my cat? I'm not asking what the law says, I'm asking what you think is right (though they could be the same).

[pshreck]

A sizeable fine, possibly community service, maybe a class on animal cruelty. Thats about it.

[Hermlord]

Also, please specify where the insanity comes in:

1) It is insane to love a cat, not as property but as a companion living being
2) It is insane to punish intentional murder with torture and murder.
3) The punishment is just but the consequences are too severe to make it worthwhile.

1) I guess I'm just insane then.
2) It is the intentionality that does it for me. The active will to kill for no reason but pleasure/desire, to me, is worthy of severe punishment.
3) I am not concerned with practical consequences, only with justice. This is called adherence to principles; you may claim that my principles are flawed but then you should address 1) or 2).

Please notice how I am using logic, clearly stating what I believe, and actually discussing the issue at hand. Pretty mature, huh?!?

[pshreck]

Why are you still posting in this thread? You came off as a nutcase in your original post, and then whined about not having a serious discussion, on something that is so ridiculous that even OOT wont seriously discuss. I am now pissed for even having humored you. It is insane and immoral to murder a HUMAN as justice for murdering a CAT. Get it?

[Hermlord]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you still posting in this thread? You came off as a nutcase in your original post, and then whined about not having a serious discussion, on something that is so ridiculous that even OOT wont seriously discuss. I am now pissed for even having humored you. It is insane and immoral to murder a HUMAN as justice for murdering a CAT. Get it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I don't.

[pshreck]

I'm sure you do understand it, but are now just annoyed at this wasteland of a thread.

For future reference, making ridiculous claims on the forum to start off a thread will really make it hard to have a serious discussion. Plus, getting mad when no one believes you won't do any good.

[Hermlord]

Yes, I understand it, but I don't "get it" -- meaning I don't agree with it. For future reference, I am not emotionally invested in what you or the rest of OOT thinks about me, my cat, or whatever.

Also, for future reference, this is not a troll thread. I don't find trolling entertaining in the least. I am being completely straight here.

As far as I can tell, I am giving straightforward replies to everyone and trying to break apart the issue to learn what is so crazy about it. I will keep responding seriously until the thread dies -- so if you hate it so much, stop adding to it.

Edit: Well obviously I knew sorta what would happen, but it's not trolling because I am taking it seriously, even though I could foresee the likely outcome.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]

1) I guess I'm just insane then.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the same people who claim you are insane to love your cat would have no problem with someone saying he loves his dog.

[ QUOTE ]

2) It is the intentionality that does it for me. The active will to kill for no reason but pleasure/desire, to me, is worthy of severe punishment.


[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you. Someone that would kill someone else's pet for pleasure is sick and evil. Someone who would kill someone else's pet and not care that it will cause emotional harm on the owner is sick and evil. Society doesn't punish people enough who do stuff like this. If someone kills your pet, the most you can generally sue someone for is the monetary value of the animal. Only in extreme circumstances will criminal charges ever get laid. It would be very frustrating for someone who genuinely loved his/her pet to see someone who killed that pet "for kicks" get off scott free. I'd want to inflict harm on this person, but actually killing him *is* a tad insane and would lower me to the level of the pet-killer.

There are other ways to get back at him...if he/she killed your pet in a particularly gruesome fashion, you could go to the press, for instance...the press loves stories like that. Havint the killer villified by the community would probably be revenge enough.

[ QUOTE ]

3) I am not concerned with practical consequences, only with justice. This is called adherence to principles; you may claim that my principles are flawed but then you should address 1) or 2).


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe that killing a cat intentionally should carry a death sentence. If intentionally killing a cat should carry a death sentence, what about crimes like rape, assault, etc...?
Most people would argue that a death sentence for killing a pet is a wee bit too harsh. However, in most places, the killer would get off scott free or with a slap on the wrist, and I think that's wrong too.

Mind you, it's not the killing of the pet itself that I believe is the reason the person should be punished. The punishment should come due to the emotional harm the act caused the owner of the cat. Many people have only their pet as their companion, and losing their pet is equivalent (for these people) to someone else losing a child.

For those who scoff at the idea of an adult loving a pet, how would you feel about someone who kills an 8 year old child's dog in front of the child? Does this person deserve to go unpunished?

[mostsmooth]

this thread sucks

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

How nice for you.

Your post sucks considerably more than this thread.
If you are going to be critical, at least include some substance.

Even lame topics are better than empty insults.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, fair enough. I like the mature (because you're older and more mature, right?) deliberate goading that you actively went back and added.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wasn't intended to be goading. It's what I really wish would happen to animal rights whackos, particularly ones that troll oot with their nonsense.

[ QUOTE ]
So here's a new question: what would you consider to be a just and moral punishment for deliberately murdering my cat? I'm not asking what the law says, I'm asking what you think is right (though they could be the same).

[/ QUOTE ]
They should have to replace the cat of equal or greater monetary value. Also, this is a similar crime to stealing, or possibly vandalism, so I guess whatever punishment fits those crimes.