Do You Hunt Animals?

[theBruiser500]

I just read Animal Liberation now, pretty good book about cruetly to animals... experimentioatn done on animals, and factory farms. ANd it brings up hutning a couple of times which seems cruel to me. Do you guys hunt, do you think it's immoral? What I see in hunting is killing a sentient animal for fun, seems kind of perverse to me. I am kind of thinking of the gun owners here, are you hunters too (Ray Zee, JAsucker, wacki)?

[Blackjack]

No but I like to have intimate relations with them

[thatpfunk]

I don't understand it at all.

[Dead]

I hunt deer.

I kill them and eat them.

I also own pistols.

[nolanfan34]

Does this count?

I was driving to play golf this morning, and I hit a rabbit with my car. A fricken' jackrabbit. Didn't even see it until the last minute, until it made a loud thump under my back wheels, and I saw it tumbling across the road in the rear view mirror.

Am I a bad person?

[Dead]

No.

Someone was going to shoot it anyway.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I hunt deer.

I kill them and eat them.

I also own pistols.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you know deer very well? i bet if you did you wouldn't kill them. just like dogs something we're all more familiar with, i bet you wouldn't hunt a dog.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hunt deer.

I kill them and eat them.

I also own pistols.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you know deer very well? i bet if you did you wouldn't kill them. just like dogs something we're all more familiar with, i bet you wouldn't hunt a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use my dog to hunt deer. My dog pins the deer if it's still moving once I've shot it and I give it some of the meat.

I would still shoot a deer even if I got to know it. It's a matter of property rights. I would have no problem with someone hunting dogs if it was allowed. I might hunt them as well. But mine is my property.

[theBruiser500]

dogs are just like people, they feel pain, they have emotions too and are good friends with other people and dogs. would you hunt other humans if it was allowed?

[Lazymeatball]

Let me preface my post by saying I work in an animal hospital and take care of sick dogs among other animals every night. If dog's were tasty I would totally hunt them and eat them, just not my dog, she's kind of skinny anyway.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
dogs are just like people, they feel pain, they have emotions too and are good friends with other people and dogs. would you hunt other humans if it was allowed?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't hung other humans, and I can't believe that you think dogs are just like humans. Dogs can't think on the same level that humans can. They are inferior creatures. Now that's not to say that some aren't cute.

[theBruiser500]

what does ability to think have to do with feeling pain from being shot and dying? would you shoot mentally retarded people who are as dumb as dogs?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
what does ability to think have to do with feeling pain from being shot and dying? would you shoot mentally retarded people who are as dumb as dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which do you think is more painful, bruiser?

Being slaughtered in a slaughtehouse, or being shot once. I guarantee you it's #1. A gunshot is a relatively humane way to die. Better than starvation, which happens to some deer. They are overpopulating.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]

what does ability to think have to do with feeling pain from being shot and dying? would you shoot mentally retarded people who are as dumb as dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

good post.

[Hiding]

There is plenty of room for gods animals.....right next to the mashed potatoes, and yeah I hunt.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Dead is as dumb as a dog.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
would you shoot mentally retarded people who are as dumb as dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't be very sporting.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
would you shoot mentally retarded people who are as dumb as dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are a lot of Utilitirians who would respond in the affirmative. But Utilitarians also take very kindly to animals.

I definetely don't see a problem with hunting, killing and eating an animal. We do far more cruel and wasteful things towards animals than that.

[theBruiser500]

dead, i don't like the other stuff we do to animals, factory farming and slaughterhouses and i agree those are a lot worse. it is all bad. as to your point about overpopulating, who are you, god? if by some coincidence you kill a deer who would have starved to death and saved it some pain that is lucky. very arrogant to go around killing animals saying they might have died in a worse way anyway. again an analogy, should we go down to africa where people are starving and start hunting those people?

[Dr. Strangelove]

This is hilarious. Bruiser is just owning Dead's retarded arguments. The way to approach this is by stating the cold hard facts: We are the greatest carnivore to ever walk the earth, and animals taste good.

("Carnivore" not meant literally)

[theBruiser500]

i will admit now btw that i am trying to be vegetarian but eat fish, cheese, and still eat a little bit of chicken. it is really hard to respect animals, if i started eating other people they would get mad at me and make me stop but animals can't really do anything about it. i don't think most people think this through much and most people's reasons for being cruel to animals are weak rationalizations and people shouldn't be so mean to animals but that is the way it is.

[peachy]

yes...deer and dove mostly

[Lazymeatball]

Okay Bruiser, a dog and a baby are about to get hit by a car. You can only save one, who do you save?

[Dead]

Neither. Hahah

[thatpfunk]

really? i could never date a girl that hunts... so sorry peachy...

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
....vegetarian but eat fish, cheese, and still eat a little bit of chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious why fish and chicken are exempt from your plan to co-exist peacably with members of the animal kingdom.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
if i started eating other people they would get mad at me and make me stop

[/ QUOTE ]

If you started to eat dead I wouldn't get mad, and I wouldn't make you stop.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
really? i could never date a girl that hunts... so sorry peachy...

[/ QUOTE ]

hahah the hazzard of being the 1st born when daddy wanted a boy and didnt get one for 10 yrs after /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....vegetarian but eat fish, cheese, and still eat a little bit of chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious why fish and chicken are exempt from your plan to co-exist peacably with members of the animal kingdom.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is what i was trying to say, they shouldn't be really but i can't help myself

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
i will admit now btw that i am trying to be vegetarian but eat fish, cheese, and still eat a little bit of chicken.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU are SUCH a hypocrite. If you are not a complete vegan then get off your high horse and stop bashing.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[InchoateHand]

I would cheer you on and give you any beverage that made [censored]<font color="white"> . </font> taste better.

[theBruiser500]

so wacki do you hunt?

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE they feel pain...they have nerves...just b/c they dont verbally cry out doesnt mean they dont...come on!! WHen u start to cut the sides off they flop around...thats there WTF r u DOING?!?!

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE they feel pain...they have nerves...just b/c they dont verbally cry out doesnt mean they dont...come on!! WHen u start to cut the sides off they flop around...thats there WTF r u DOING?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok just be quiet, because you are wrong. Fish lack the brains to feel pain. It's been proven conclusively. And I know that you don't know what you're talking about because you posted some science question on here a long time ago that has a really obvious answer.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE they feel pain...they have nerves...just b/c they dont verbally cry out doesnt mean they dont...come on!! WHen u start to cut the sides off they flop around...thats there WTF r u DOING?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok just be quiet, because you are wrong. Fish lack the brains to feel pain. It's been proven conclusively. And I know that you don't know what you're talking about because you posted some science question on here a long time ago that has a really obvious answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never posted a science ? on here...so ur WRONG....

and u show me these studies...cause i had always been told that they do...and thier brains dont lack in that area...wtf r u talkin about

[Prevaricator]

Hi Danny. We've already beaten this topic to death in person but lets take a look at this...

We are a species.
Some species hunt other species.

So ethically speaking, how are we doing anything wrong. Also, the killing that occurs in nature (Bears and Deer for example) is because one species must consume the other to survive, and the bear possesses the killing instinct. Is it possible that we have the same instincts the bear possesses, but because of evolution and our evolved higher intelligence we kill for sport? I think that topic is very interesting.

Anyways, I believe killing of animals for sport is wrong not because it is cruel, but because it is an irresponsible use of our power as the dominant species on earth. Hunting animals for sport tampers with the ecosystem and may have unforseen consequences in the future, and the only thing gained from it is the happiness the hunter feels for slaying his prey.

[[censored]]

I for no logical reason am against hunting carnivores but not against hunting herbavores. Again no real logical reason as to why. I personally though would never hunt.

[peachy]

christ...the 1st thing that came up when i typed it in...

http://www.fishinghurts.com/FishFeelPain.asp

now u go prove me wrong

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE they feel pain...they have nerves...just b/c they dont verbally cry out doesnt mean they dont...come on!! WHen u start to cut the sides off they flop around...thats there WTF r u DOING?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok just be quiet, because you are wrong. Fish lack the brains to feel pain. It's been proven conclusively. And I know that you don't know what you're talking about because you posted some science question on here a long time ago that has a really obvious answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never posted a science ? on here...so ur WRONG....

and u show me these studies...cause i had always been told that they do...and thier brains dont lack in that area...wtf r u talkin about

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. You're going by what you heard? Lmao. Give me a break, peachy. In what area don't they lack? Since you're such a brain expert then maybe you can tell me. You're not the jack of all trades that you think you are.

link (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725683181.html)

Pick up a copy of the journal article mentioned on that site, and you can read all about it. I have a copy of it right here next to me because I happen to fish. It's called Reviews of Fisheries science.

In it, Professor Rose says the following:

""Pain is predicated on awareness," he said. "The key issue is the distinction between nociception and pain. A person who is anaesthetised in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."

So, you are WRONG.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
christ...the 1st thing that came up when i typed it in...

http://www.fishinghurts.com/FishFeelPain.asp



[/ QUOTE ]


That is a propaganda site started by people affiliated with PETA. I posted a real link. So stfu.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
christ...the 1st thing that came up when i typed it in...

http://www.fishinghurts.com/FishFeelPain.asp



[/ QUOTE ]


That is a propaganda site started by people affiliated with PETA. I posted a real link. So stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

it says LATEST school of THOUGHT...nice try...try again...urs is no GREAT journal let alone a journal..so try try again lil one

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i will admit now btw that i am trying to be vegetarian but eat fish, cheese, and still eat a little bit of chicken.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU are SUCH a hypocrite. If you are not a complete vegan then get off your high horse and stop bashing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehhh wrong, bruiser is not a hypochrite.

Fish have nowhere near the brain power that mammals do.

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
Ehhh wrong, bruiser is not a hypochrite.

Fish have nowhere near the brain power that mammals do.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that it is okay to kill stupid animals but not smart animals. Elaborate on this?

[theBruiser500]

Hey Randy, it is better that we debate online I think, we can get further this way before one of us gets frustrated and stops the debate. With other animals they have the instinct to kill like you say, and you suggets we have that instinct to kill. But consider, when huting are we really acting on instinct? I don't think so. Instinct would be something that developed a long time ago when there were no guns, an urge to run up to an animals and start attacking it with our fists, feet, teeth. Do you ever feel that urge? I don't think so. When going out with a gun it's not a primal urge, it's sport.

I think the way we hunt other species is fundementally different. They do it for survival and we do it for sport as you say. But as I say it's not about instinct. So to say as you do "We are a species. Some specicies hunt other specicies" is misleading because our way of hunting is different from all other spececies types of hunting.

[peachy]

here u go DEAD...how do u think they sense anything??? i mean come on...they sense hot and cold

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/media-centre/nca/main/fishpaindoc.pdf

and heres another with people at top universities referrenced
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/17/national/main656288.shtml

so dont tell me im wrong in what ive heard

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ehhh wrong, bruiser is not a hypochrite.

Fish have nowhere near the brain power that mammals do.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that it is okay to kill stupid animals but not smart animals. Elaborate on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why then would you stop at animals. Plants are alive too are they not?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
christ...the 1st thing that came up when i typed it in...

http://www.fishinghurts.com/FishFeelPain.asp



[/ QUOTE ]


That is a propaganda site started by people affiliated with PETA. I posted a real link. So stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

it says LATEST school of THOUGHT...nice try...try again...urs is no GREAT journal let alone a journal..so try try again lil one

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a lot dumber than you think you are. And Wacki was right, god you are just [censored] annoying. Jesus.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
so wacki do you hunt?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was living in Texas and dead was on my property, I would hunt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Other than that, it's just paper and clay targets. I get no pleasure in ending a life.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
So what you are saying is that it is okay to kill stupid animals but not smart animals. Elaborate on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much. For instance, take lobster, their central nervous system is complex enough to sense and react to stress but they don't feel pain. Rip a leg off and 2 seconds later it doesn't remember a thing. Beat a dog, cow, or deer at a young age and it's messed up for life.

[MMMMMM]

1) Animals do feel pain; just because they's not as smart doesn't mean they can't feel lots of pain and fear. They do.

2) Hunting animals for food is less cruel than paying someone to raise them in confined quarters and slaughter them. Also, I'll bet if most people had to kill their own food, they'd eat less animal food.

3) Animals eat each other. So...Ben Franklin was out boating with some friends and his friends were fishing, but he had been trying to be a vegetarian. Upon seeing little fishes in another fish's belly, he thought: "If you eat each other, I don't see why we mayn't eat you." Thereupon he stopped trying to be a vegetarian.

4) Deer ARE overpopulating. There are far more deer now than when the Pilgrims arrived. Lack of natural predators is allowing them to flourish. I hit one with my car 6 months ago: it JUMPED out of someone's yard right in front of the car at twilight--Kaboom. No way to avoid it. Sorry deer but why did you have to do THAT??? People are dying in deer and moose accidents. The ratio of deer to people in the USA is something like 1:7

5) There is a lot to be said for going through life causing as little suffering to other sentient beings as possible. Yet some is unavoidable. I would feel better emotionally not eating meat, but every time I've tried to do that, it seemed to mess up my stomach or my life somehow within a couple of weeks. So I eat meat now and am somewhat of a hypocrite in that regard.

6) Animals deserve more respect than most people give them. PETA however goes too far and is kind of nutty. It sounds seriously ridiculous when they say things like "Every day is 9/11 for chickens".

[Prevaricator]

I think hunting has to do with instint, at least to some degree no matter what. It's hard to say what would happen if our ancestors were vegetarian since there's a high correlation with carnivores and intelligence. Vegetarian animals dont evolve intelligence because they don't need it to stay alive, they don't need it to eat the plants. Instead they might evolve larger necks or whatever. Before humans hunted for sport, we hunted for food. The hunt for food itself became the sport.

I still say that
1. We are a species
2. Species are allowed to hunt other species
3. Therefore, we are not out of line to hunt other species.

The point of this is to say that how much pain we cause animals is irrelevant in the argument. If you argue that we cause pain to animals, then you have to take a pseudo-utilitarian approach and factor in the amount of pleasure the hunter experiences. I still believe that it is ethically wrong to kill the animals because it tampors with the ecosystem, and we should be trying to preserve the environment.

[peachy]

i cant wait for AviD to read this

[BusterStacks]

I do not care to follow up on this thread, but I do want to say something about it. I do not hunt on the principle that I do not want to kill something. However people like bruiser make me wish I did hunt just so I would not be in the same category as an idealistic hippie with no grasp on reality.

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the way we hunt other species is fundementally different. They do it for survival and we do it for sport as you say. But as I say it's not about instinct. So to say as you do "We are a species. Some specicies hunt other specicies" is misleading because our way of hunting is different from all other spececies types of hunting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't entirely true. For example, sometimes cats will hunt mice and kill them and then just play with them afterwards and not even eat them. They just think it's fun to rip their heads off and stuff. They do it for sport.

[Prevaricator]

If lobsters had really complex brains would you not eat them? What about squid, they have more complex brains but it is hypothesized that they do not have pain receptors, or at least they haven't shown signs of pain in laboratory tests. So the ethics behind killing animals rests on whether or not the animal has enough pain receptors to feel that it is being harmed, and the actual act of killing the animal has nothing to do with it. I do not think this is the case.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always heard tha fish don't feel pain. Does anyone know if this is true?

As for bruiser, dude, cut him some slack, it is not an easy transition...

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE they feel pain...they have nerves...just b/c they dont verbally cry out doesnt mean they dont...come on!! WHen u start to cut the sides off they flop around...thats there WTF r u DOING?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok just be quiet, because you are wrong. Fish lack the brains to feel pain. It's been proven conclusively. And I know that you don't know what you're talking about because you posted some science question on here a long time ago that has a really obvious answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never posted a science ? on here...so ur WRONG....

and u show me these studies...cause i had always been told that they do...and thier brains dont lack in that area...wtf r u talkin about

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. You're going by what you heard? Lmao. Give me a break, peachy. In what area don't they lack? Since you're such a brain expert then maybe you can tell me. You're not the jack of all trades that you think you are.

link (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725683181.html)

Pick up a copy of the journal article mentioned on that site, and you can read all about it. I have a copy of it right here next to me because I happen to fish. It's called Reviews of Fisheries science.

In it, Professor Rose says the following:

""Pain is predicated on awareness," he said. "The key issue is the distinction between nociception and pain. A person who is anaesthetised in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."

So, you are WRONG.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahah ive fished since i was 3 yrs old and travel all over to do so...so just b/c u fish doesnt make u any more knowledgeful

[wacki]

Someone called Bruiser a hypochrite. I defended him. His moral guideline on the foodchain is not the same as mine.

[Dead]

What the hell is knowledgeful?

I guess you certainly are more knowledgeful than me. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is knowledgeful?

I guess you certainly are more knowledgeful than me. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said that...

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is knowledgeful?

I guess you certainly are more knowledgeful than me. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said that...

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

[ QUOTE ]
hahah ive fished since i was 3 yrs old and travel all over to do so...so just b/c u fish doesnt make u any more knowledgeful

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can tell me what that word means.

Hint: it's not a word.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is knowledgeful?

I guess you certainly are more knowledgeful than me. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said that...

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

[ QUOTE ]
hahah ive fished since i was 3 yrs old and travel all over to do so...so just b/c u fish doesnt make u any more knowledgeful

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can tell me what that word means.

Hint: it's not a word.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[Dr. Strangelove]

Deadvpeachy arguments are like midget mudwrestling without the funny.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]


im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I don't have a stupid-to-English translator.

Mebbe u can help me out. Ewkiez?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Lmao.

[wacki]

http://fishing.about.com/od/fishermensside/a/bljoepeta.htm
http://saltfishing.about.com/cs/envconservation/a/aa030615b_2.htm

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
http://fishing.about.com/od/fishermensside/a/bljoepeta.htm
http://saltfishing.about.com/cs/envconservation/a/aa030615b_2.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

Wacki, what are these facts doing in here? Do you kill fishies?!

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Wacki, what are these facts doing in here? Do you kill fishies?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead and peachy were argueing about fish pain. Also bruiser was called a hypochrite.

As for me hunting fishies:

Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=1762875&amp;Fo rum=f20&amp;Words=fishing&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=1 762875&amp;Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=7066&amp;daterange=1 &amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyp rev=#Post1762875)

BTW, I've beaten a shark to death with a maglite. I was deep sea fishing and it got into the boat. The shark was probably 5' long.

[irishken]

These reminds me of some 6 years old girl, once we were going to hunt elk and she says "papa papa dont hurt them they have senses too".

First off, we are not allowed to hunt more animals then goverment thinks is good. And its not because they just feel like "oh yeah let them kill 500, oh make it 1000 elks this year" its calulated how much is good for the nature.
Second do you understand how many people elks, deer etc. kill ever year.. not like they would shoot us but when they run in front of car. Thats not nice. And the numbers would be much higher if we wouldent take care there wont be too many elks. Still I rate human life bit more valuable then elks, dont you?

[Shoe]

Whether or not you agree with hunting itself, it is necesary to maintain a healthy animal population/herd.

By hunting, we can maintain an ideal population of deer that the land can support. If there was no hunting, the population would go through wild swings, whenver there became too many deer, a ton of them would end up dieing of starvation over the winter months.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, this is hilarious. "barbbed hooks." i guess real fishermen don't need barbs on their hooks. or does she spearfish?

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, this is hilarious. "barbbed hooks." i guess real fishermen don't need barbs on their hooks. or does she spearfish?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont use barbed hooks....and no i dont spearfish - well when im frog hunting i do

[jakethebake]

I've killed and eaten, ducks, geese, doves, quail, deer, fish, rattlesnakes, alligators, rabbits, squirrels, and probably a few other things. I eat what I kill. I enjoy the sport in hunting. But I don't kill just to kill. I eat what I kill.

One thing of historical significance is that it was the hunters protecting nature long before PETA, Greenpeace, or any of the other whackos were doing it. The hunters did it so their progeny would enjoy nature, and all the activities associated with it, including hunting.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, this is hilarious. "barbbed hooks." i guess real fishermen don't need barbs on their hooks. or does she spearfish?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont use barbed hooks....and no i dont spearfish - well when im frog hunting i do

[/ QUOTE ]

so what do you use, bent finishing nails and string? electric nets?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Sephus]

progeny?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
progeny?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Thank you...lol. That is funny though.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, this is hilarious. "barbbed hooks." i guess real fishermen don't need barbs on their hooks. or does she spearfish?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont use barbed hooks....and no i dont spearfish - well when im frog hunting i do

[/ QUOTE ]

so what do you use, bent finishing nails and string? electric nets?

[/ QUOTE ]

uumm the obvious...barbless hooks and flys

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes they are made...and if u buy regular hooks u can easily bend or rip them off with pliers

[Sephus]

lol now it looks like i didnt know what progeny meant.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
lol now it looks like i didnt know what progeny meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Attention" I used the wrong word where I should have used progeny. It was not a typo, I used the wrong word and Sephus was nice enough to notify me so I could correct it in my post. He knows what progeny means. That is all. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes they are made...and if u buy regular hooks u can easily bend or rip them off with pliers

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also easily stand on one leg while you do fish, which makes about as much sense. let me guess, you tie your own flies with a patch over one eye and while wearing mittens? is that how real sportsmen do it?

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol now it looks like i didnt know what progeny meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Attention" I used the wrong word where I should have used progeny. It was not a typo, I used the wrong word and Sephus was nice enough to notify me so I could correct it in my post. He knows what progeny means. That is all. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaha thank you.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes they are made...and if u buy regular hooks u can easily bend or rip them off with pliers

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also easily stand on one leg while you do fish, which makes about as much sense. let me guess, you tie your own flies with a patch over one eye and while wearing mittens? is that how real sportsmen do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess u dont understand much about fishing then...and no i use flies my dad ties im not so great at it /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[theBruiser500]

how about hutning of animals that don't need their population controlled? like bears, i met someone on the appalachian trail who was going to hike the whole thing and then when he finished he was going to hunt bear in maine. as far as i know there aren't too many bears in the world.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes they are made...and if u buy regular hooks u can easily bend or rip them off with pliers

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also easily stand on one leg while you do fish, which makes about as much sense. let me guess, you tie your own flies with a patch over one eye and while wearing mittens? is that how real sportsmen do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess u dont understand much about fishing then...and no i use flies my dad ties im not so great at it /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't even tie your own then I can't believe you think that you are a better fisherman than I am.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
how about hutning of animals that don't need their population controlled? like bears, i met someone on the appalachian trail who was going to hike the whole thing and then when he finished he was going to hunt bear in maine. as far as i know there aren't too many bears in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

But bears are evil. Don't tell me that you wouldn't like to shoot a bear. They are always portrayed as evil bastards in the movies. I would like to shoot one if given the chance.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]


If you can't even tie your own then I can't believe you think that you are a better fisherman than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

uuumm this proves ur an idiot...im not talkin about TYING a hook on. Im talkin about making/tying flies. It takes hours and hours of winding, using holders, knowing the season, etc etc. My dads let me do a few but he knocks them out way faster than i ever could (just from doing it so much).

Again...dont come down on me unless u know whats being talked about...

[theBruiser500]

Dead is that supposed to be a joke? Because I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]

Dead is that supposed to be a joke? Because I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; dead

[Talk2BigSteve]

Only the one's that are in my garage!

Big Steve /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Animals do feel pain; just because they's not as smart doesn't mean they can't feel lots of pain and fear. They do.

2) Hunting animals for food is less cruel than paying someone to raise them in confined quarters and slaughter them. Also, I'll bet if most people had to kill their own food, they'd eat less animal food.

3) Animals eat each other. So...Ben Franklin was out boating with some friends and his friends were fishing, but he had been trying to be a vegetarian. Upon seeing little fishes in another fish's belly, he thought: "If you eat each other, I don't see why we mayn't eat you." Thereupon he stopped trying to be a vegetarian.

4) Deer ARE overpopulating. There are far more deer now than when the Pilgrims arrived. Lack of natural predators is allowing them to flourish. I hit one with my car 6 months ago: it JUMPED out of someone's yard right in front of the car at twilight--Kaboom. No way to avoid it. Sorry deer but why did you have to do THAT??? People are dying in deer and moose accidents. The ratio of deer to people in the USA is something like 1:7

5) There is a lot to be said for going through life causing as little suffering to other sentient beings as possible. Yet some is unavoidable. I would feel better emotionally not eating meat, but every time I've tried to do that, it seemed to mess up my stomach or my life somehow within a couple of weeks. So I eat meat now and am somewhat of a hypocrite in that regard.

6) Animals deserve more respect than most people give them. PETA however goes too far and is kind of nutty. It sounds seriously ridiculous when they say things like "Every day is 9/11 for chickens".

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated.

[AviD]

I'm a hunter.
Nature is cruel.
Humans are at the top of the food chain.
Mmmmm venison, little bit of marinade, some garlic, a nice hot grill...MMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

One final note, if you NEVER eat meat (this includes chicken, steak, fish, McDonalds, Burger King, Sausage on pizza, bacon, etc)...then I would say you at least have a leg to stand on in arguing about hunting (although even then its slim). If you DO eat ANY kind of meat, EVER...then what is the difference between me killing the food I eat, and me killing the food you eat...where "me" is anyone in the world, including the butchers and processors that make that Big Mac you are chowing down on right now?

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't surprise me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
I hunt deer.

I kill them and eat them.

I also own pistols.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good man.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this count?

I was driving to play golf this morning, and I hit a rabbit with my car. A fricken' jackrabbit. Didn't even see it until the last minute, until it made a loud thump under my back wheels, and I saw it tumbling across the road in the rear view mirror.

Am I a bad person?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be happy it wasn't a deer, elk, or moose...you probably wouldn't have been golfing that or any other day.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
how about hutning of animals that don't need their population controlled? like bears, i met someone on the appalachian trail who was going to hike the whole thing and then when he finished he was going to hunt bear in maine. as far as i know there aren't too many bears in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post.

No offense, but what planet do you live on?

Did you know last year a bear in NY grabbed a baby from a stroller in the BACK YARD of the parent's house?

Don't believe me? Think again (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/19/national/main519186.shtml)

And this is only ONE of MANY incidents. In fact, in NJ alone, there have been several dozen human/bear encounters in the last two months since bears came out of hibernation.

So, tell me again...bear's can't be dangerous or overpopulated or don't need to be controlled.

Check out Linda Smith, you two will get along well. Next you'll be pitching her tune saying we need to "learn to live with bears". News flash buddy...despite your "knowledge" on sustainable habitat, general ecology, and animal control, humans have the ability to reason, wild animals do not.

No predator (or even non-predator) "considers" other animals in their "thoughts" before they act. They just act and do what is natural to them. They don't "reason" their way through a "problem" to find a "solution". Although animals are capable of thought, they are not capable of the reasoning you are trying to establish here.

As a result, outside of building concrete walls around your life, you aren't keeping bears out of THEIR habitat (that humans invaded and developed, which bears have now ADAPTED to). They will not "reason" with humans to come to some "agreement" to not raid their trash cans, break into their homes, grab their baby's and pets from their backyards, etc.

So, if not hunting, what is your solution? Keep in mind hunting generates BILLIONS of dollars each year. What other solution would MAKE money for a state/region while at the same time maintaining a given wildlife population and creating a sustainable and SAFE environment for both humans and wildlife?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

And this is only ONE of MANY incidents. In fact, in NJ alone, there have been several dozen human/bear encounters in the last two months since bears came out of hibernation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many of these encounters were deaths? If you are going to make a claim like that you need to be a lot more precise about what you mean.

With the lack of natural predators I fully support deer hunting. Still your post seems very misleading. It looks like you are making bears out to be killers. This is simply not the case. The vast majority of black bears (the one that ate the baby in your link) will run away from something a dog or even a harmless unarmed mom.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And this is only ONE of MANY incidents. In fact, in NJ alone, there have been several dozen human/bear encounters in the last two months since bears came out of hibernation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many of these encounters were deaths? If you are going to make a claim like that you need to be a lot more precise about what you mean.

With the lack of natural predators I fully support deer hunting. Still your post seems very misleading. It looks like you are making bears out to be killers. This is simply not the case. The vast majority of black bears (the one that ate the baby in your link) will run away from something a dog or even a harmless unarmed mom.

[/ QUOTE ]

not here...they can be very very dangerous with cubs. I have been chased down a number of times and nearly killed once (back in national forest only a short distance).
And in more civilized places they get to used to people and are no longer afraid...we have one that comes right up to our ranch house and tears stuff apart and its tried to attack our horses a number of times...i have no remorse about killing a bear that endangers me, my family, my horses, etc

All of these types of animals become threats when they are hungry and are no longer scared of humans...either a few mountian lions or bob cats (cant remember) attacked a woman on a very very very frequented trail near the beginning of it here last year...drug her off into the woods...killed her and feasted.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And this is only ONE of MANY incidents. In fact, in NJ alone, there have been several dozen human/bear encounters in the last two months since bears came out of hibernation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many of these encounters were deaths? If you are going to make a claim like that you need to be a lot more precise about what you mean.

With the lack of natural predators I fully support deer hunting. Still your post seems very misleading. It looks like you are making bears out to be killers. This is simply not the case. The vast majority of black bears (the one that ate the baby in your link) will run away from something a dog or even a harmless unarmed mom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a good link from the NRA end of support on bear hunting here in NJ:

NRA Bear Link (http://www.bachbio.com/njbears.htm)

The bottom line is when a bear is hungry, they are going to eat or try to eat whatever suits them.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And this is only ONE of MANY incidents. In fact, in NJ alone, there have been several dozen human/bear encounters in the last two months since bears came out of hibernation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many of these encounters were deaths? If you are going to make a claim like that you need to be a lot more precise about what you mean.

With the lack of natural predators I fully support deer hunting. Still your post seems very misleading. It looks like you are making bears out to be killers. This is simply not the case. The vast majority of black bears (the one that ate the baby in your link) will run away from something a dog or even a harmless unarmed mom.

[/ QUOTE ]

not here...they can be very very dangerous with cubs. I have been chased down a number of times and nearly killed once (back in national forest only a short distance).
And in more civilized places they get to used to people and are no longer afraid...we have one that comes right up to our ranch house and tears stuff apart and its tried to attack our horses a number of times...i have no remorse about killing a bear that endangers me, my family, more horses, etc

All of these types of animals become threats when they are hungry and are no longer scared of humans...either a few mountian lions or bob cats (cant remember) attacked a woman on a very very very frequented trail near the beginning of it here last year...drug her off into the woods...killed her and feasted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worth noting here. These are two different forms of bear aggression.

One involves protection of a sow's cubs, the other involves hunger and lack of fear for and adaptation to humans. Two different worlds, but both accurately represent the potential aggression of bears.

[theBruiser500]

aviD, i think you are way off here. first of all, is it too many bears or is it not enough space for bears because we use all of the land? and then is killing some bears going to help this problem? i dunno it doesn't seem like to me, i don't know what wouldn't stop a stray bear from going out and doing this even if there were a lot less. what then, should we kill all bears?

and as wacki brings up, i don't think this is a big problem. i saw a brown bear once, just the back of it though because it's bolted as soon as it heard me. when i was hiking on the appalachian trail i did not hear about people having problems with bears in the least.

let's step back here a second and look at what's going on. beras kill a couple of humans because we take up so much land and the solution to this is to systematically hunt them down with guns??

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
aviD, i think you are way off here. first of all, is it too many bears or is it not enough space for bears because we use all of the land? and then is killing some bears going to help this problem? i dunno it doesn't seem like to me, i don't know what wouldn't stop a stray bear from going out and doing this even if there were a lot less. what then, should we kill all bears?

and as wacki brings up, i don't think this is a big problem. i saw a brown bear once, just the back of it though because it's bolted as soon as it heard me. when i was hiking on the appalachian trail i did not hear about people having problems with bears in the least.

let's step back here a second and look at what's going on. beras kill a couple of humans because we take up so much land and the solution to this is to systematically hunt them down with guns??

[/ QUOTE ]

put them in national parks etc, but if they are near cities or threatening poeople - yes gun them down. Are a few human lives worth not killing a bear? not to me! And 9 out of 10 times i have come across a bear i have been charged half the times they had no cubs (to be seen) and some were late in season so i know they werent protecting cubs...this is a matter of opinion and those who live in cities have a different perspective b/c u dont have to deal with it. Move out to the country and see how u feel about it, if u had a bear coming up to ur home at ease u would do something about it

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im sayin in GENERAL it doesnt make u any smarter than anyone else on a topic...whos to say u dont just fish with a normal rod with barbbed hooks for regular lake fish - that doesnt make u a very good fisherman in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? I've never even seen a hook w/o a barb? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing made? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes they are made...and if u buy regular hooks u can easily bend or rip them off with pliers

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also easily stand on one leg while you do fish, which makes about as much sense. let me guess, you tie your own flies with a patch over one eye and while wearing mittens? is that how real sportsmen do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, believe it or not, some fisherman are actually thinking about the well-being of the fish they catch.

There is this great thing called "catch and release" which allows recreational fisherman to catch a fish, release it, and catch it another day...while at the same time giving the same opportunity to other fisherman that may frequent the same body of water that or some other day.

So, it would make sense to ensure the fish is released as quickly and harmlessly as possible so that it remains as healthy as possible for future catches....hence the barbless hook. Granted it is more challenging to land a fish but it is easy to release them without involving excess handling which could otherwise damage the protective coating around their body (you know that slimy [censored] you get all over your hands when you handle a fish, yeah that's like it's eco-suit and you F it up when you man handle them like a noob trying to get the hook out).

[KungFuSandwich]

Hey Bruiser, If you ruled the world would hunting be allowed?

What about eating meat?

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aviD, i think you are way off here. first of all, is it too many bears or is it not enough space for bears because we use all of the land? and then is killing some bears going to help this problem? i dunno it doesn't seem like to me, i don't know what wouldn't stop a stray bear from going out and doing this even if there were a lot less. what then, should we kill all bears?

and as wacki brings up, i don't think this is a big problem. i saw a brown bear once, just the back of it though because it's bolted as soon as it heard me. when i was hiking on the appalachian trail i did not hear about people having problems with bears in the least.

let's step back here a second and look at what's going on. beras kill a couple of humans because we take up so much land and the solution to this is to systematically hunt them down with guns??

[/ QUOTE ]

put them in national parks etc, but if they are near cities or threatening poeople - yes gun them down. Are a few human lives worth not killing a bear? not to me! And 9 out of 10 times i have come across a bear i have been charged half the times they had no cubs (to be seen) and some were late in season so i know they werent protecting cubs...this is a matter of opinion and those who live in cities have a different perspective b/c u dont have to deal with it. Move out to the country and see how u feel about it, if u had a bear coming up to ur home at ease u would do something about it

[/ QUOTE ]

Peachy, this is absurd. People should just not be careless. The city I live in has tons of bears all the time and all you need to do is just keep your dog inside and be alert for signs of them.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, believe it or not, some fisherman are actually thinking about the well-being of the fish they catch.

There is this great thing called "catch and release" which allows recreational fisherman to catch a fish, release it, and catch it another day...while at the same time giving the same opportunity to other fisherman that may frequent the same body of water that or some other day.

So, it would make sense to ensure the fish is released as quickly and harmlessly as possible so that it remains as healthy as possible for future catches....hence the barbless hook. Granted it is more challenging to land a fish but it is easy to release them without involving excess handling which could otherwise damage the protective coating around their body (you know that slimy [censored] you get all over your hands when you handle a fish, yeah that's like it's eco-suit and you F it up when you man handle them like a noob trying to get the hook out).

[/ QUOTE ]

and this is exactlly what i do...but noone got that...so to me most of u just fish for fun and wouldnt know what bait to use, in what weather, in what season, in what depth for the life of u

i got bored of the "typical fishing" most people do, it lost its challenge...hell anyone can get lucky and catch a fish and keep it on with a barbed hook...throw a worm in and sit and wait - to me thats NOT fishing

currently i fly fish, it takes me knowing what flies to use when and most of these flies are hand made (by my dad or me). Also a great deal of practice went into me learning to fly fish, not just the regular casting, but learning to cast around trees, branches, river bends, etc. And on top of that u have to learn to read the water, know what fly to use when, and i fish with barbless hooks. SO if it isnt already hard enough to fly fish, reel in with both hands, find the fish, etc I also have to keep enough tension and go down river (over fallen trees, thru deep and shallow water, and sometimes just get straight pulled down the river until i get footing again) with the fish in order to not lose him (the hook falling out or him spitting it out). Once i have them in (which can sometimes take almost an hr or more) i dont use a net or anything. I hold my rod back with one hand, which can be a feat on its own b/c they r SOOOO long, and take the hook out IN the water with pliers. I try my best not to even touch the fish and if i do it does not leave the water (except the few times we have taken them out for pictures but even then they r lifted out with both hands for only seconds).

Also when i took this beyond just river fishing i had to even advance my skills further and being a girl it was hard for me because i now salt water fly fish as well. The equipment is much larger and in the shallow waters in the keys u must be able to cast much further - it took me nearly 4 months to get down casting OUT 80 ft + consistently and being able to bring it back out behind me and back out again. And the tarpon we would fly fish for would sometimes take well over 3 to 4 hrs to land.

If this means i dont know how to fish...then i dont know what does

[tbach24]

Also, how can you justify slaughter of animals as "being at the top of the food chain" and at the same time stop bears from their hunting?

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
aviD, i think you are way off here. first of all, is it too many bears or is it not enough space for bears because we use all of the land? and then is killing some bears going to help this problem? i dunno it doesn't seem like to me, i don't know what wouldn't stop a stray bear from going out and doing this even if there were a lot less. what then, should we kill all bears?

and as wacki brings up, i don't think this is a big problem. i saw a brown bear once, just the back of it though because it's bolted as soon as it heard me. when i was hiking on the appalachian trail i did not hear about people having problems with bears in the least.

let's step back here a second and look at what's going on. beras kill a couple of humans because we take up so much land and the solution to this is to systematically hunt them down with guns??

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser, some good Qs here.


[ QUOTE ]
first of all, is it too many bears or is it not enough space for bears because we use all of the land? and then is killing some bears going to help this problem? i dunno it doesn't seem like to me, i don't know what wouldn't stop a stray bear from going out and doing this even if there were a lot less. what then, should we kill all bears?


[/ QUOTE ]

The first thing I want to say in response is we should not kill ALL of anything. That is NOT the principle of wildlife conversation or maintaining a sustainable habitat. You are trying to control wildlife populations such that their numbers accurately reflect an ecological balance with their sustainable habitat.


As far as "stray bears" as you mentioned, this can be a common issue in areas that are highly populated by humans and also populated by bears (perhaps many, perhaps few).

The bottom line is, if bears are left unhunted (as they have been in NJ for a long, long time until recently) they become accustomed to humans, do not fear humans, and eventually grow to a population where their habitat is no longer sustainable given the number of bears. So they begin to expand their home ranges (i.e. where they live) in search of food, cover, water, etc.

So when you have hungry, WILD animals that do not fear humans and humans have habits that generate interest for those wild animals (i.e. garbage), you will have conflicts.

For areas with too many bears, what is the solution? I say hunting for reasons stated previously.

For areas with few bears, what is the solution? Well this could be a "special" case bear that happens to have "strayed" as you said. There is plenty of habitat but this particular bear became problematic. Relocation is an option but involves taxpayer money (i.e. has cost), killing is the quickest and cheapest removal of the animal and is often NOT done by hunters but rather by wildlife conservation officers.

Worth noting, these "strays" are not frequent...in fact I would say they are extremely rare...for the same reason you experienced on the Appalacian Trail. Bears generally fear humans, but not when food is involved and not when they are hungry and not when it threatens their lives or their youngs' lives (i.e. sow with cubs).

[ QUOTE ]
let's step back here a second and look at what's going on. beras kill a couple of humans because we take up so much land and the solution to this is to systematically hunt them down with guns??


[/ QUOTE ]

No this isn't Vietnam. We aren't forming recon search parties in an attempt to wipe out the entire bear population. Again, hunting is about wildlife conservation, not wildlife elimination. We are trying to control their population, not end it.

View hunters as a wildlife "tool" that generates funding for your area. We are a tool that gives back to the community in more ways than you can imagine. It's a shame so many people see it otherwise, or are generally misinformed and have misperceptions about what hunting truly achieves.

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how can you justify slaughter of animals as "being at the top of the food chain" and at the same time stop bears from their hunting?

[/ QUOTE ]Some people say the cucumbers taste better pickled

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how can you justify slaughter of animals as "being at the top of the food chain" and at the same time stop bears from their hunting?

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying hunt bears, if im threatened im killing it, and i get the nice bonus of a bear rug by the fire place. This winter im going on a trip with my dad in order to hunt bears and other large game. Its for sport and to spend time with others who like doing the same. Everything we have ever hunted/killed was eaten and saved us a ton of money on meat for a few months.

Would i ever consider hunting purely for sport? Sure, in africa or something, but those will be very few times and its my choice to make. Noone no matter what they think will put a stop to something like hunting. Do i feel bad when i kill something? yes...very much so...but my dad reminds me we arent wasting it and i buck up. I used to sneak and let fish go he had and i even gave up a price bass i caught and my dad had JUST placed in the freeze (so that it could be stuffed) i heard it flopping in the fridge and started crying b/c i felt so bad...took it out...ran down to the lake and threw it back in (and i can only hope it servived...but i was just a kid - about 12ish). So overall i do disagree with pure sport killing, but if its for safety, food, etc I do not have a problem with it or otherwise we would be overrun by animals for humans take up far too much space in this world...but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[AviD]

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People should just not be careless. The city I live in has tons of bears all the time and all you need to do is just keep your dog inside and be alert for signs of them.


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Tell me that when a bear grabs your dog?
Or tell me that when one is on top of you?
Or tell me that when one is in your kitchen tearing your house apart?

Do you live in Fort Nox or have motion detection cameras surrounding your home?

Bear's aren't stupid, are extremely agile and move amazingly quiet through the woods for such large animals. They can get past your "awareness" and surprise you, believe it or not.

So what "signs" do you look out for? What do you do when you see these "signs"?

[AviD]

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Also, how can you justify slaughter of animals as "being at the top of the food chain" and at the same time stop bears from their hunting?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reasons you prevent humans and everything else from killing you, or taking your belongings, or doing anything else that can be considered negative.

This isn't difficult.

So by your statement, I can assume if a bear eyeballs your dog outside because you missed his "signs", then you should stay uninvolved and allow him to attack your dog?

Seems reasonable...

[tbach24]

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[ QUOTE ]
People should just not be careless. The city I live in has tons of bears all the time and all you need to do is just keep your dog inside and be alert for signs of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me that when a bear grabs your dog?
Or tell me that when one is on top of you?
Or tell me that when one is in your kitchen tearing your house apart?

Do you live in Fort Nox or have motion detection cameras surrounding your home?

Bear's aren't stupid, are extremely agile and move amazingly quiet through the woods for such large animals. They can get past your "awareness" and surprise you, believe it or not.

So what "signs" do you look out for? What do you do when you see these "signs"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in Western MA. I've never been attacked by a bear, although I was playing bball with a friend and a bear came up and we just calmly walked away. The major sign that you look for is dogs incessant barking.

[AviD]

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The major sign that you look for is dogs incessant barking.


[/ QUOTE ]

I figure you are running from the mailman and every other foreign visitor quite a bit.

You guys ever finish a game of BBall in MA? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[wacki]

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Tell me that when a bear grabs your dog?
Or tell me that when one is on top of you?
Or tell me that when one is in your kitchen tearing your house apart?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this argument. Somebody once told me that I would never support the right to bear arms if I ever had someone I knew get shot to death.

I responded, well I know several people that were shot and killed and I LOVE being a gun owner.

EDIT: BTW I still agree that hunting is a viable option for overpopulatin of animals.

[tbach24]

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but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[peachy]

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[ QUOTE ]
but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[tbach24]

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I figure you are running from the mailman and every other foreign visitor quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehh, I can tell the difference in barks from my dog. It's kinda like how I can tell which person is coming based upon footsteps, I just know.

[tbach24]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either they are attracted to you or you aren't handling it correctly.

[wacki]

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but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either they are attracted to you or you aren't handling it correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

What, no "stick it in her pooper" comment? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either they are attracted to you or you aren't handling it correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

i remain very calm...i dont freak out...i was brought up around this stuff...and i knew better than to wear any scents out in these places...im not a total moron in all things

[tbach24]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either they are attracted to you or you aren't handling it correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

i remain very calm...i dont freak out...i was brought up around this stuff...

[/ QUOTE ]

Then we revert back to option A.

[peachy]

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Then we revert back to option A.

[/ QUOTE ]

go back and reread i hit the thingy before i was done /images/graemlins/laugh.gif i answered A

[tbach24]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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but u really cant just go out and kill off people so the animals have more of a place to live now can we??

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. A human's life is much more important than a bear's, however I don't think they are as threatening as people are making them out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do u explain that 9 times out of the 10 i have come across them I have been persued and they initiated it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either they are attracted to you or you aren't handling it correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

i remain very calm...i dont freak out...i was brought up around this stuff...and i knew better than to wear any scents out in these places...im not a total moron in all things

[/ QUOTE ]

From my experience and what I've heard about them, this seems very bizarre. Perhaps you are just unlucky.

[peachy]

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From my experience and what I've heard about them, this seems very bizarre. Perhaps you are just unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive also been attacked a # of times by wild boars in packs, turkeys, and wild dogs...so im all for thier killing as well

[tbach24]

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From my experience and what I've heard about them, this seems very bizarre. Perhaps you are just unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive also been attacked a # of times by wild boars in packs, turkeys, and wild dogs...so im all for thier killing as well

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you are unlucky I guess then

[peachy]

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From my experience and what I've heard about them, this seems very bizarre. Perhaps you are just unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive also been attacked a # of times by wild boars in packs, turkeys, and wild dogs...so im all for thier killing as well

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you are unlucky I guess then

[/ QUOTE ]

no...im just exposed to them more than the avg person in the sports ive done

[AviD]

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[ QUOTE ]

Tell me that when a bear grabs your dog?
Or tell me that when one is on top of you?
Or tell me that when one is in your kitchen tearing your house apart?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this argument. Somebody once told me that I would never support the right to bear arms if I ever had someone I knew get shot to death.

I responded, well I know several people that were shot and killed and I LOVE being a gun owner.

EDIT: BTW I still agree that hunting is a viable option for overpopulatin of animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wacki I am glad you and I see eye to eye on gun ownership and hunting, as I'm sure you know...we need more of us! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Granted it is more challenging to land a fish but it is easy to release them without involving excess handling which could otherwise damage the protective coating around their body (you know that slimy [censored] you get all over your hands when you handle a fish, yeah that's like it's eco-suit and you F it up when you man handle them like a noob trying to get the hook out).

[/ QUOTE ]

if you cut the line and leave the hook in the fish you don't have to handle the fish at all.

[AviD]

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[ QUOTE ]
I figure you are running from the mailman and every other foreign visitor quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehh, I can tell the difference in barks from my dog. It's kinda like how I can tell which person is coming based upon footsteps, I just know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess dog's can have different barking "levels" and reactions to foreign visitors...so I guess you may be able to gauge when to run and when to keep playing.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granted it is more challenging to land a fish but it is easy to release them without involving excess handling which could otherwise damage the protective coating around their body (you know that slimy [censored] you get all over your hands when you handle a fish, yeah that's like it's eco-suit and you F it up when you man handle them like a noob trying to get the hook out).

[/ QUOTE ]

if you cut the line and leave the hook in the fish you don't have to handle the fish at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed this is an option, but its debateable if it is more healthy to leave the hook and line in a fish vs unhooking it.

Cutting the line and leaving the hook is a common option when the hook is deep within the fishes mouth (i.e. swallowed) as it would cause far more damage getting it out than leaving it in and letting it break down. Otherwise I think its best to remove it.

[Dead]

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Dead is that supposed to be a joke? Because I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.

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Bruiser &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; dead

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But it wasn't a joke. I was being Dead serious.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granted it is more challenging to land a fish but it is easy to release them without involving excess handling which could otherwise damage the protective coating around their body (you know that slimy [censored] you get all over your hands when you handle a fish, yeah that's like it's eco-suit and you F it up when you man handle them like a noob trying to get the hook out).

[/ QUOTE ]

if you cut the line and leave the hook in the fish you don't have to handle the fish at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

not thats just retarded...and the way i do it i dont have to handle it...