The Road to Hell

Tommy,


The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I believe you have the best of intentions.


I use the word “hell” as a metaphor, since I do not believe in it. I do not believe in satan or in the personal supernatural being that many regard as God. Of course, I also do not believe in any traditional religions. However, I do believe in the existence of good and evil. To believe otherwise would have horrendous implications.


“They see us as evil. We see them as evil. Both are right, and wrong, depending only on who is judging.”


Do you really believe this? It is a self-contradictory statement. If good and evil are solely a function of one’s personal perspective, then neither party is right nor wrong. Self-interest would be the only remaining factor to guide and motivate our behavior. We have enough psychopaths in the world without this relativistic philosophy promoting more.


I think one thing you are reacting against is the arrogant certaintly exhibited by many people, western and otherwise, that their own view of morality is the correct one. This is what caused me to reject traditional religions at an early age. While I believe that absolute good and evil exist, I do not think it is possible to be absolutely certain which is which. No matter what one’s religious or spiritual beliefs might be, it is ultimately the responsibility of each individual to strive to differentiate between good and evil based on the evidence of their senses, thoughts, and feelings. Sometimes our judgements will be wrong. Believing that something is good or evil does not make it so.


Many actions have both good and evil consequences, and reasonable people will often disagree on whether an action is predominantly good or evil; in the case of these terrorist massacres, however, I have little trouble concluding with reasonable certainty it is the latter.


As for fighting hate with hate, I do not think anyone on this forum has advocated that. I feel angry and sorry for the perpetrators of this terrorism; I do not hate them. I do think we will need to employ force to combat them, however.


Regards,


Mike

....with scumbag towel-heads. That they would kill innocent civilians shows there should be zero discussion.


Anyone who lost, or nearly lost a loved one (as I did with a son on the 23rd flr of the North Tower yesterday morning) in this act of war, who watched Palestinians cheering in the streets and wasn't turned to hatred, is either a major pussy or a hater of America. Blow the Arab bastards up. Make them as extinct as the dinosaurs. The world will be a better place.

"While I believe that absolute good and evil exist, I do not think it is possible to be absolutely certain which is which."


I disagree. I think this type of destruction is evil. How can it not be?


"I feel angry and sorry for the perpetrators of this terrorism; I do not hate them."


I find this an interesting point. I was once told by a school teacher, 'you don't hate someone, you hate what they do.' If these people are so sick and dusillusioned that they believe what they have done is right, I too feel sorry for them. The situation is just so messed up. A mate of mine met a young boy in his world travels, who had a picture of Yasser in his wallet, and was claiming "I die for this man, I die for him'. He was 14. Seeing people dancing in the streets rejoicing at this destruction is sickening. How can any religion see violence as a positive?


Miles...So What?

Sadly I think your point is true. Our world would be a better place, but not theirs. At this stage I am not ready to contemplate their side of things, as I am sure many are not. I am an Australian, and not patriotic to any extreme degree, but seeing the cheering Palestinians made me want to inflict physical harm on them. I felt sick in the stomach. My only joy came from knowing these pathetic humans probably live in disease infested shanty towns, suffering from illnesses you and me are cured from by taking a pill, sharing a toilet with 100 feral relatives, and generally living a pathetic quality of life. They have nothing to lose.


Miles..So What?

I am very sorry for your loss. I cannot say that if I had suffered a similar loss, I would not feel as you do. I believe military action will be an appropriate part of America's response to this massacre. I also believe we will be more likely to achieve the goal of preventing future terrorism if our response is not motivated by hate.


Sincerely,


Mike

My assertion that absolute certainty regarding moral questions is not justifiable stems from the value I place on humility and being open-minded. It is a matter of principle. When people are absolutely certain of the correctness of their position, there is no need for them to consider other viewpoints or contradictory evidence. This is dangerous.


Though acceptance of my human fallibity prevents me from claiming absolute certainty on questions of good and evil, I agree that it is difficult to imagine how these attacks could be anything other than evil.

Agree with a lot of what MJS is saying in terms of moral judgment. We must be willing to judge good and evil, although the rational ability which allows us to judge such matters also allows us to see the possibility that our judgment is imperfect. We know we may make mistakes, but that does not absolve us of the responsibility of exercising our judgment. It should temper our judgment, but not eliminate it.

As meager of an offering as this is I offer my condolences to you for your loss. When the final death toll is known how pertinent are the arguments for a different foreign policy and a enlightened action? Where do we draw the line and say that our survival is at stake? Is it 2,000 dead; 5,000 dead; 10,000 dead; 50,000 dead; 100,000 dead; 6,000,000 dead? For me the line has been crossed as it’s our survival at stake now. God help us if these people ever make a weapon of mass destruction.

"Blow the Arab bastards up?"


Most Arabs are appalled by these events and to suggest that Arabs should be blown up is disgusting.


Because some members of a group behave dispicably doesn't justify hatred of all of them.

Me: “They see us as evil. We see them as evil. Both are right, and wrong, depending only on who is judging.”


Michael: "Do you really believe this?"


In the same way that I "believe" 2+2=4.


"It is a self-contradictory statement. If good and evil are solely a function of one’s personal perspective, then neither party is right nor wrong. Self-interest would be the only remaining factor to guide and motivate our behavior."


True. But when our 'self-interest' includes an adherence to our own ethical code, then many behaviors are willfully and knowingly out of bounds. For example, it would be in my self-interest to steal food, but I don't.


"I think one thing you are reacting against is the arrogant certaintly exhibited by many people, western and otherwise, that their own view of morality is the correct one."


Not quite. My ethical code is absoutely correct, for me. To suggest that others should force their feet into my shoes is absurd. The same reasoning applies on the global level, where nations evolve something resembling an ethical code.


"it is ultimately the responsibility of each individual to strive to differentiate between good and evil based on the evidence of their senses, thoughts, and feelings. Sometimes our judgements will be wrong. Believing that something is good or evil does not make it so."


I don't think we have a disagreement.


"As for fighting hate with hate, I do not think anyone on this forum has advocated that."


And I didn't intend to suggest that anyone had.


"I do think we will need to employ force to combat them, however."


I have no opinion on how and if the USA should take retaliatory action because the decision makers have many parameters to weigh and I share few of their concerns, and little of their information.


Tommy

With bin-Laden's billionaire status, he surely could purchase a nuclear weapon somehow. With the torrent of smuggled drugs making it into our country every day, he surely could pay for a nuclear bomb to be smuggled in. As long as bin-Laden and his lietenants are alive and free, it is only a matter of time before we wake up one morning to find that a nuclear bomb (probably in a truck) has been detonated in New York City, Washington, or Los Angeles...or perhaps in all three.

***My ethical code is absoutely correct, for me. To suggest that others should force their feet into my shoes is absurd.***


I don't know what your moral code is, but let's say, hypothetically, that planning and carrying out the slaughter of thousands of people was something your ethical code believed to absolutely wrong. Your comment above seems to state that it would nonetheless be absurb for you to attempt to force others not plan and carry out the slaughter of thousands. To this I say, that is absurd. There are issues on which I agree that moral relativism is a useful and essential thing to take into account, but this is not one of them. There are certain things about which it is not acceptable to say, "Well, that's their way" and leave it at that.

In so doing we'll also become extinct like the dinoaaurs.

Tommy,


There appears to be logical inconsistency in your views. If there is no such thing as good and evil, right and wrong, how can anyone have an "ethical code." What might appear like an ethical code can only be behavioral plans based on self-interested risk-reward analysis.


"My ethical code is absoutely correct, for me. To suggest that others should force their feet into my shoes is absurd."


If I understand your position correctly, it would be absurd only to the extent that it would fail to promote your self-interest. It cannot be wrong to impose your values on others, nor can it be right. You may think it would be wrong, but thinking so does not make it so. It would only be wrong for you, because it would make you feel uncomfortable.


The logical extension of this reasoning is that it would be fine for someone who does not value tolerance to impose his ethical code on others if it would serve his self-interest.


I think we share a deep concern with the problem of intolerance. You deal with this problem by asserting that nobody is right or wrong because good and evil do not exist. I deal with the problem by emphasizing that we should have a humble and open-minded approach to moral judgment, cognizant of our human fallibility. However, acts about which we are very sure are very evil should not be tolerated.


Regards,


Mike

Dr. Wogga,


I am very sorry for your loss. I think even though you are very angry you need to consider that if we do what you suggest it could be another family member next time. We need to get the people responsible for this and we need to make sure we don't kill the wrong people. If we kill the wrong people there will no dobt be another such attack. If we do it the right way and fix our systems for prevention of this we can prevail. Your son will be avenged but we need to make sure that doesn't mean becoming the thing you hate (cowardly).


Zach