Control of Iraq Oil Fields A USA Objective?

[adios]

I would think so given that Iraq has I believe the second most in the ground oil assets in the Middle East. If the USA goes in and removes Sadaam from power I would doubt that they would carelessly turn the oil fields over or let them be unprotected in a power struggle. BTW does anyone know if we remove Sadaam from power how the next government of Iraq will be formed.

[Zeno]

"BTW does anyone know if we remove Sadaam from power how the next government of Iraq will be formed."

NO! And NOBOBY else does either!!!! Not that it will stop our goverment from doing what it feels must be done.

-Zeno

[Dynasty]

The new government in Iraq will be made up of those forces in Iraq which assist in the Bath(sp?) party's defeat. It should be similar to what happened in Afghanistan even though Iraqi resistance isn't nearly as organized as the Norther Alliance.

I've read that fighting a war in Iraq would be nearly impossible in the Summer due to the extreme weather. Because of that, I think we can expect a war to be fought within the next 6 months.

As for the oil fields, I'm sure there are some people/institutions looking forward to having greater petroleum resources available. However, I don't think President Bush gives a damn about the oil. He wants to overthrow somebody who he sees as a legitimate threat to world security and who tried to kill his father.

[brad]

it was in the newspapers a while back that the US would install a 'military governor' after the invasion. (some army general)

whatever that means.

[sourwhiskystrait]

Very wishful thinking. Cheney and Bush both represent big oil. A pipeline through Afganistan from the Black Sea to Uzbekistan is currently ubder construction. Negotiations had broken down with the Taliban in early 2001. The whole reason the intelligence community had a "breakdown" and per mitted 9-11 to transpire was to respond with a massive oil grab. Bush the First created people like Noriega and Saddam. He funded them, and felt it his right to punish them when they bit their master's hand.

The whole Bush the Second's Presidency is about oil. It's a pity that a nation as technologically advanced as the USA refuses to develop energy resources not based on fossil fuels.

[adios]

So we're not even talking about a democracy with free elections? I wonder why that would be? Perhaps someone from Sadaam's "party" would most likely be elected. I really don't know. I've been in the world too long to believe that economic issues are irrelevent in this situation.

[Dynasty]

So we're not even talking about a democracy with free elections?

If a military governor is installed in Iraq, I'm sure the model will be the U.S. occupation of Japan in the late 1940's. General MacArthur was a military governor there for many years while a demorcratic goverment was established and the economy rebuilt.

[IrishHand]

Exactly - it takes a few years to install a proper pro-US "democratic" government.

[Dynasty]

I don't think we'd keep a military governor in Iraq any longer than 18 months. That kind of occupation of Iraq will cause too many international political problems. I could see a 6-12 month long military governership before a new Iraqi government was in place. Of course, our military force would still be there for much longer if any Bath resistance was still around.

I wonder if the United Nations could be used to establish a "military governor". That would be a substantial increase in the scope of the U.N.'s power. However, it would be much more acceptable to Middle East and European powers.

[MMMMMM]

On a tangent: speaking of the U.N.'s power, I think we should hope that it will be decreasing rather than increasing (especially as long as dictatorships and totalitarian regimes have voices, votes and even Security Council member status).

Is the U.N. becoming obsolete? Should it become obsolete? Should totalitariam regimes have votes in the U.N. (I tend to think not, but what alternative exists at present)?

Ironic, however, that totalitarian regimes are allowed a vote in the U.N. even though they don't let their own people vote at home.

I hope the free world keeps getting stronger and we get a decent missile shield and keep developing the totally clean hydrogen-fuel-cell cars (two working prototypes just released). Then we might just be able to tell all the totalitarian governments remaining in the world to take a flying f***.

Hopefully some day the rest of the world will enjoy approximately the same degree of freedom and self-determination the citizens of the free world today enjoy--and perhaps even more.

[MMMMMM]

I think economic issues are pertinent to this matter, but perhaps in a different way than some might expect.

Even if we gain control of the oil fields it isn't like we are just stealing the oil (at least I don't think so)--we would still be buying it on the world market at the world price. What it will mean, however, is that Saddam will no longer have the potential to blackmail the world by threatening to destroy the oil fields, perhaps by radioactive weapons, or by other means (as he tried to do 11 years ago). So gaining control will be more like a step to assurance that Iraqi, Saudi and other regional oil fields won't be destroyed at some point in the future.

Actually, the war with Iraq should be quite costly, economically speaking, and it isn't like we are going to get any immediate financial reward to compensate for the massive expense. What is the security of the oil supply worth to the world, in the long run? Probably quite a lot...and of course if there is a war we are going to bear the lion's share of the burden, financially speaking, while the rest of the free world benefits from the (hopefully) greater stability in the region and lesser chances of catastrophic attacks upon the world's largest oil reserves.

[brad]

haliburton

[MMMMMM]

Whatever financial benefits may accrue to any firm will be dwarfed by the massive overall expense of the war. How much do you think this war is going to cost?

[IrishHand]

No more than it would have cost us to attack any other country that's made the 'evil-doer' list.

[brad]

yes but ask who pays costs and who gets benefits. its a real world out there

[MMMMMM]

War today is very expensive and very hard on the economy. A few might benefit of course, but given that the war will be costly and we won't really reap an oil windfall (still will pay world oil prices), the catch phrase 'war for oil' isn't really fitting. Also, our economy is still recovering from the terrible cost of 9/11, and a war with Iraq (and reconstruction, etc.) is estimated to be going to cost from 99 billion to 1.9 trillion...guaranteed Haliburton can't make anything near that from it.

I agree there are financial considerations in the long-term (vis-a-vis security of supplies), and in the short-term special interests' influence may have a role too. But those who may be thinking it is a war to boost the economy have got it all wrong: it will put a huge further strain on the economy with no apparent or immediate financial reward for the USA.

[adios]

Ok benefits to the USA:

1. Eliminate a government involved in state sponsored terrorism that is arguably a bad world citizen.

2. By taking "temporary" (probably) control of the Iraq oil fields world oil prices probably decline and OPEC loses at least loses some clout.

3. Provide a staging area and a place for USA military bases that will be able to react to situations in the Middle East rapidly as well as providing bases for launching attacks on state sponsored terrorism.

4. Through USA "nation building" efforts estabish a government in Iraq that is USA friendly thus shifting the balance of power in the Middle East.

[MMMMMM]

All good points and probably real benefits; largely intangible though. At least in the short-term won't compensate for the cost, but probably worth it in the long-term. On the other hand if it ends up increasingly polarizing the Arab/Muslim world against the West additional costs may be incurred or those benefits may be reduced.

I agree with you, Tom, that financial considerations are part of the entire scenario...I just don't think it is nearly so clear-cut as some people I've spoken with have seemed to think. In particular, certain people are against the Iraqi regime but are also against "war for oil" or "war to boost the economy." I'm just saying that at least in the short-term the huge costs should harm rather than help the economy, and the benefits (to the USA) are somewhat intangible and distant. There may also be hidden costs in the form of unanticipated backlashes as well. Yet in the long-term it is probably worth it.

[IrishHand]

Immediate control over such a massive supply of oil is a huge, definite, short-term benefit. It's ridiculous to think we'll simply be one of many purchasers of this oil on some sort of "free world market". We'll set up preferential contracts, then have gobs of the stuff carted back here for the enjoyment of our gas-loving American populace.

Also, increased polarization of the Muslim/Arab world against us is pretty inevitable so long as we continue to exercise our invluence in that area with the subtlety of a sledge hammer. I saw a documentary program on the Discovery channel a couple weeks back that was focused on the opinions of schoolchildren in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and other Middle-Eastern countries (the "other" refers to Iran and Iraq - I realize Afghanistan isn't Middle Eastern). It was nearly universal that they regarded "Usama" as this great character and "Americans" as a country which has repeatedly raped and defiled the Muslim world (not my words - those came from a 15-year old (or at least the TV translator's version thereof).

Irish

[brad]

dont be silly. costs are socialized and profits are privatized.

[B-Man]

The whole reason the intelligence community had a "breakdown" and per mitted 9-11 to transpire was to respond with a massive oil grab.

Please post some facts to support that ridiculous claim. Pointing out the Bush/Cheney are/were involved in the oil business does not prove that the U.S. allowed 9/11 to happen as part of some vast conspiracy.

[MMMMMM]

Now who's being silly?

I didn't dispute your point; in fact I acknowledged it (as far as it may go). However you didn't refute my point which is that the catch phrases "war for oil" and "war for the economy" are at best oversimplifications and at worst significantly wrong. Yet you are posting as though our points are in conflict, when in fact they are simply separate points.

[sourwhiskystrait]

June 19, 2002] -- As the revelations of Bush Administration foreknowledge have progressed from silence, to trickle, to cascade, the question has now changed from forcing the evidence into the open into one of forcing both the media and the people to avoid denying this information in the hopes that their desire for a sense of "normalcy" can be fulfilled. As many of us have known for years, normalcy went out the window forever when the first plane hit the tower. And what has been revealed will not be resolved with an expensive fact-finding commission, a few firing, or even an impeachment proceeding. What is needed in America -- and in the global economic system -- is an overhaul, not a tune up.

1. 1991-1997 - Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines, the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Source: "The Price of Oil" by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9, 2001 - The Asia Times, "The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. January 1995 - Philippine police investigating a possible attack on the Pope uncover plans for Operation Bojinka, connected to World Trade Center (WTC) bomber Ramsi Youssef. Parts of the plan call for crashing hijacked airliners into civilian targets. Details of the plan are disclosed in Youssef's 1997 trial for the 1993 WTC bombing. [Source: Agence France-Presse, Dec. 7, 2001]

3. Dec. 4, 1997 - Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

4. Feb. 12, 1998 - Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca -- later to become a special ambassador to Afghanistan -- testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan, the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

5. August 1998 - After the U.S. cruise missile attacks on Al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan in retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Unocal officially withdraws from participation in the CentGas trans-Afghani gas pipeline project. [Various sources, Unocal]

6. 1998 - The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an Al Qaeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times Jan. 21, 2001; "See No Evil" by Robert Baer (release date February 2002)]

7. April 1999 - Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical generating plant at Dabhol, India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of Multan. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

8. July 4, 1999 - President Clinton signs Executive Order 13129, which freezes Taliban assets in the U.S. and prohibits trade between the Afgh

[sourwhiskystrait]

June 19, 2002] -- As the revelations of Bush Administration foreknowledge have progressed from silence, to trickle, to cascade, the question has now changed from forcing the evidence into the open into one of forcing both the media and the people to avoid denying this information in the hopes that their desire for a sense of "normalcy" can be fulfilled. As many of us have known for years, normalcy went out the window forever when the first plane hit the tower. And what has been revealed will not be resolved with an expensive fact-finding commission, a few firing, or even an impeachment proceeding. What is needed in America -- and in the global economic system -- is an overhaul, not a tune up.

1. 1991-1997 - Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines, the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Source: "The Price of Oil" by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9, 2001 - The Asia Times, "The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. January 1995 - Philippine police investigating a possible attack on the Pope uncover plans for Operation Bojinka, connected to World Trade Center (WTC) bomber Ramsi Youssef. Parts of the plan call for crashing hijacked airliners into civilian targets. Details of the plan are disclosed in Youssef's 1997 trial for the 1993 WTC bombing. [Source: Agence France-Presse, Dec. 7, 2001]

3. Dec. 4, 1997 - Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

4. Feb. 12, 1998 - Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca -- later to become a special ambassador to Afghanistan -- testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan, the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

5. August 1998 - After the U.S. cruise missile attacks on Al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan in retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Unocal officially withdraws from participation in the CentGas trans-Afghani gas pipeline project. [Various sources, Unocal]

6. 1998 - The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an Al Qaeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times Jan. 21, 2001; "See No Evil" by Robert Baer (release date February 2002)]

7. April 1999 - Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical generating plant at Dabhol, India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of Multan. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

8. July 4, 1999 - President Clinton signs Executive Order 13129, which freezes Taliban assets in the U.S. and prohibits trade between the Afghan fundamentalist regime and U.S. entities. [Source: Federal Register, Vol. 64, No. 129, July 7, 1999]

9. 1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No. 7 - "The Best Enemies Money Can Buy"
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/carlyle.html]

10. March 2000 - An FBI agent, reportedly angry over a glitch in Carnivore that has somehow mixed innocent non-targeted emails with those belonging to Al Qaeda, destroys all of the FBI's Denver-based intercepts of bin Laden's colleagues in a terrorist investigation. [Source: The Washington Post, May 29, 2002]

11. 2000 (est.) - The FBI refuses to disclose the date of an internal memo stating that a Middle Eastern nation had been trying to purchase a flight simulator. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 30, 2002]

12. August 2000 -- Suspected Al Qaeda operatives wiretapped by Italian police made apparent references to plans for major attacks involving airports, airplanes and the United States according to transcripts obtained by the Los Angeles Times. The Times suggests that the information might not have been passed to U.S. authorities (hard to believe), but it did report that Italian authorities would not comment on the report. The Times also noted that "Italian and U.S. anti-terrorism experts cooperate closely." [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 29, 2002]

13. Oct. 24-26, 2000 - Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon. [Source: The Mirror, May 24, 2002]

14. January 2001 - The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va. -- right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996 that frustrated efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast, Nov. 7, 2001]

15. Jan. 30, 2001 - Sept. 11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah was questioned in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). A number of UAE, Middle Eastern, European, and U.S. sources were cited in this CNN report, which said the CIA requested Jarrah be interrogated because he had been in Afghanistan and was suspected to have ties to terrorists. An unnamed CIA spokesman said the other sources' claims that the agency knew anything about Jarrah before Sept. 11 were "flatly untrue." Jarrah's Jan. 30 detainment at the airport in Dubai, UAE came six months after he took flying lessons in the U.S. Jarrah was released because "U.S. officials were satisfied," said the report. [Source: CNN, Aug. 1, 2002 http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html]

16. Feb. 13, 2001 - UPI terrorism correspondent Richard Sale -- while covering a trial of bin Laden's Al Qaeda followers -- reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden's encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February, it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

17. May 2001 - Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001]

18. Ma

[sourwhiskystrait]

June 19, 2002] -- As the revelations of Bush Administration foreknowledge have progressed from silence, to trickle, to cascade, the question has now changed from forcing the evidence into the open into one of forcing both the media and the people to avoid denying this information in the hopes that their desire for a sense of "normalcy" can be fulfilled. As many of us have known for years, normalcy went out the window forever when the first plane hit the tower. And what has been revealed will not be resolved with an expensive fact-finding commission, a few firing, or even an impeachment proceeding. What is needed in America -- and in the global economic system -- is an overhaul, not a tune up.

1. 1991-1997 - Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines, the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Source: "The Price of Oil" by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9, 2001 - The Asia Times, "The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. January 1995 - Philippine police investigating a possible attack on the Pope uncover plans for Operation Bojinka, connected to World Trade Center (WTC) bomber Ramsi Youssef. Parts of the plan call for crashing hijacked airliners into civilian targets. Details of the plan are disclosed in Youssef's 1997 trial for the 1993 WTC bombing. [Source: Agence France-Presse, Dec. 7, 2001]

3. Dec. 4, 1997 - Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

4. Feb. 12, 1998 - Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca -- later to become a special ambassador to Afghanistan -- testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan, the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

5. August 1998 - After the U.S. cruise missile attacks on Al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan in retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Unocal officially withdraws from participation in the CentGas trans-Afghani gas pipeline project. [Various sources, Unocal]

6. 1998 - The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an Al Qaeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times Jan. 21, 2001; "See No Evil" by Robert Baer (release date February 2002)]

7. April 1999 - Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical generating plant at Dabhol, India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of Multan. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

8. July 4, 1999 - President Clinton signs Executive Order 13129, which freezes Taliban assets in the U.S. and prohibits trade between the Afghan fundamentalist regime and U.S. entities. [Source: Federal Register, Vol. 64, No. 129, July 7, 1999]

9. 1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No. 7 - "The Best Enemies Money Can Buy"
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/carlyle.html]

10. March 2000 - An FBI agent, reportedly angry over a glitch in Carnivore that has somehow mixed innocent non-targeted emails with those belonging to Al Qaeda, destroys all of the FBI's Denver-based intercepts of bin Laden's colleagues in a terrorist investigation. [Source: The Washington Post, May 29, 2002]

11. 2000 (est.) - The FBI refuses to disclose the date of an internal memo stating that a Middle Eastern nation had been trying to purchase a flight simulator. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 30, 2002]

12. August 2000 -- Suspected Al Qaeda operatives wiretapped by Italian police made apparent references to plans for major attacks involving airports, airplanes and the United States according to transcripts obtained by the Los Angeles Times. The Times suggests that the information might not have been passed to U.S. authorities (hard to believe), but it did report that Italian authorities would not comment on the report. The Times also noted that "Italian and U.S. anti-terrorism experts cooperate closely." [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 29, 2002]

13. Oct. 24-26, 2000 - Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon. [Source: The Mirror, May 24, 2002]

14. January 2001 - The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va. -- right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996 that frustrated efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast, Nov. 7, 2001]

15. Jan. 30, 2001 - Sept. 11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah was questioned in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). A number of UAE, Middle Eastern, European, and U.S. sources were cited in this CNN report, which said the CIA requested Jarrah be interrogated because he had been in Afghanistan and was suspected to have ties to terrorists. An unnamed CIA spokesman said the other sources' claims that the agency knew anything about Jarrah before Sept. 11 were "flatly untrue." Jarrah's Jan. 30 detainment at the airport in Dubai, UAE came six months after he took flying lessons in the U.S. Jarrah was released because "U.S. officials were satisfied," said the report. [Source: CNN, Aug. 1, 2002 http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html]

16. Feb. 13, 2001 - UPI terrorism correspondent Richard Sale -- while covering a trial of bin Laden's Al Qaeda followers -- reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden's encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February, it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

17. May 2001 - Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001]

18. May 2001 - Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour, while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as "an unusually long meeting," also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source: The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001]

19. June 2001 - German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Sept. 14, 2001; See
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html]

20. June 8, 2001 - Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) publishes a story headlined, "Central Asia: Charges Link Russian Military to Drug Trade." According to the article, figures for 1999 published in a report by the United Nations Drug Control Program (UNDCP) revealed that 80 percent of the heroin consumed in Western Europe originated in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The UNDCP report also revealed half of the drugs in that 80 percent traveled through Central Asia. A study by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace published in March 2000 said Russian soldiers headquartered in Tajikistan were suspected of helping drug traffickers by providing them with transportation facilities. This was confirmed by a Russian intelligence officer who told the Moscow News weekly, "You can come to an arrangement [with custom officials] so that the search of military transport planes remains purely formal. The same goes for train convoys carrying military cargo [to Russia from Tajikistan]." [Source: www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/06/08062001111711.asp] (http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/06/08062001111711.asp])

21. July 2001 - FBI agents in Arizona write a memorandum warning about suspicious activities involving a group of Middle Eastern men taking flight training lessons in Phoenix. The memorandum specifically mentions Osama bin Laden and warns of connections to terrorist activities. [Source: The New York Times, May 14, 2002]

22. summer 2001 - The National Security Council convenes a Dabhol working group as revealed in a series of government e-mails obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Daily News. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

23. summer 2001 - According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain's The Guardian, correspondent David Leigh reported that "U.S. department of defense official, Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian's Felicity Lawrence established that U.S. Rangers were also training special troops in Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops were training in Alaska and Montana."

24. summer 2001 (est.) - Pakistani ISI Chief Gen. Ahmad (see above) orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta who was, according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. The individual who makes the wire transfer at Ahmad's direction is Ahmad Umar Sheik, the lead suspect in the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. [Source: The Times of India, Oct.11, 2001.]

25. summer 2001 - The online newswire online.ie reports on Sept. 14 that an Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of Sept. 9. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information. [Source:
http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=1512332.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/online_ie_story.html ]

26. summer 2001 - Jordanian intelligence, the GID, makes a communications intercept deemed so important that King Abdullah's men relay it to Washington, probably through the CIA station in Amman. To make doubly sure the message got through it was passed through an Arab intermediary to a German intelligence agent. The message: A major attack was planned inside the U.S., and aircraft would be used. The code name of the operation was "The Big Wedding." "When it became clear that the information was embarrassing to Bush Administration officials and congressmen who at first denied that there had been any such warnings before Sept. 11, senior Jordanian officials backed away from their earlier confirmations." This case was authenticated by ABC reporter John K. Cooley. [Source: International Herald Tribune (IHT), May 21, 2002]

27. summer 2001 (est.) - The National Security Agency intercepts telephone conversations between bin Laden aide Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Mohammed Atta and does not share the information with any other agencies. [Source: Jonathan Landay, Knight Ridder Newspapers, June 6, 2002]

28. June 26, 2001 - The magazine indiareacts.com states that "India and Iran will 'facilitate' U.S. and Russian plans for 'limited military action' against the Taliban." The story indicates that the fighting will be done by U.S. and Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source: indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001]

29. summer 2001 - Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for missions involving hijacked airliners. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer. (Note: The story currently on the Izvestia web site has been edited to delete a key paragraph.) [Source: Izvestia, Sept. 12, 2001,
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/izvestia_story_pic.html]


30. July 4-14, 2001 - Osama bin Laden receives treatment for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official, who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15. [Source: Le Figaro, Oct. 31, 2001]
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/Le Figaro_osama_dubai.html

31. July 15, 2001 - Members of the G8, meeting in Genoa, Italy, discuss the Taliban, pipelines, and the handing over of Osama bin Laden. According to Pakistani representative Ambassador Naiz Naik, the U.S. delegation, led by former Clinton Ambassador to Pakistan Tom Simmons warned of a "military option" if the Taliban did not change position. [Source: Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, "Bin Laden: La Verite Interdite," pp76-7. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

32. July 2001 - Immediately after the G8 Summit three American officials -- Tom Simmons (former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia) -- meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, "Bin Laden - La Verite Interdite," discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, Sept. 22, 2001; the BBC, Sept. 18, 2001; The Inter Press Service, Nov. 16, 2001; Alexander's Gas and Oil Connections, Feb. 21, 2002]

33. July 2001 - The G8 summit at Genoa, Italy is surrounded by anti-aircraft guns, and local airspace is closed off after Italian and Egyptian officials (including President Hosni Mubarak) warn American intelligence that airliners stuffed with explosives might be used to attack President Bush. U.S. officials state that the warnings were "unsubstantiated." (But I wonder if they would have taken away the anti-aircraft artillery?) [Source: Los Angeles Times, Sept. 27, 2001]

34. July 26, 2001 - CBS News reports that John Ashcroft has stopped flying commercial airlines due a threat assessment. Ashcroft told the press that he didn't know anything about what had caused it.

35. Aug. 2, 2001 - U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Christine Rocca (a former CIA officer), meets in Islamabad with a Taliban ambassador and demands the extradition of bin Laden. This was the last known meeting on the subject. [Source: Brisard and Dasquie, p 79. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

36. August 2001 - The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden's network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, Sept. 13, 2001]

37. Aug. 11 or 12, 2001 Ç U.S. Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer with U.S. naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope, which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

38. August 2001 - As reported in the IHT both a French magazine (name not given) and a Moroccan newspaper simultaneously report that a Moroccan agent named Hassan Dabou had penetrated Al Qaeda to the point of getting close to bin Laden, who was "very disappointed" that the 1993 bombing had not toppled the WTC. Dabou was called to the U.S. after reporting this, which curtailed his ability to stay in touch with the organization and gather additional intelligence that might have prevented the attacks. Though not proved beyond a doubt, these stories have been met with a wall of silence. [The IHT, May 21, 2002]

39. August 2001 - Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MSNBC interview with Putin, Sept. 15, 2001]

40. August 2001 - President Bush receives classified intelligence briefings at his Crawford, Texas ranch indicating that Osama bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. [CBS News; CNN, May 15, 2002]

41. late-August 2001 - Prince Turki, the pro-U.S. head of Saudi intelligence (also known to be close to bin Laden), is replaced by his more neutral half-brother, Prince Nawwaf who is an ally of Crown Prince Abdullah. [Source: Saudi Arabian Information Resource, Aug. 31, 2001; http://www.saudinf.com/ - Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

42. August/September 2001 - The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

43. August/September 2001 - According to a detailed 13-page memo written by Minneapolis FBI legal officer Colleen Rowley, FBI headquarters ignores urgent, direct warnings from French intelligence services about pending attacks. In addition, a single Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) in Washington expends extra effort to thwart the field office's investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, in one case rewriting Rowley's affidavit for a search warrant to search Moussaoui's laptop. Rowley's memo uses terms like "deliberately sabotage," "block," "integrity," "omitted," "downplayed," "glossed over," "mis-characterize," "improper political reasons, "deliberately thwarting," "deliberately further undercut," "suppressed," and "not completely honest." These are not terms describing negligent acts but rather, deliberate acts. FBI field agents desperately attempt to get action, but to no avail. One agent speculates that bin Laden might be planning to crash airliners into the WTC, while Rowley ironically noted that the SSA who had committed these deliberate actions had actually been promoted after Sept. 11. [Source: Associated Press, May 21, 2002]

44. Sept. 3-10, 2001 - MSNBC reports on Sept. 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9-11.

45. early-September 2001 - An FBI internal document, based upon field notes from Minnesota field agents discloses that the agents had been investigating and had questioned the "20th hijacker," Zacarias Moussaoui. The field notes speculate that Moussaoui, who had been taking flight lessons, might crash an airliner into the WTC. Interestingly, the field agents' requests to obtain a search warrant for his personal computer were denied. French intelligence confirms to the FBI that Moussaoui has ties to terrorist groups and may have traveled to Afghanistan. The agents also had no knowledge of the Phoenix memo (See Item #18). One news story states that agents were in "a frenzy," absolutely convinced that he was "going to do something with a plane." [Source: Newsweek, May 20, 2002 issue, story by Michael Isikoff].

46. Sept. 1-10 2001 - In an exercise, called Operation "Swift Sword" and planned for four years, 23,000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9-11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment, the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation "Bright Star." All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the WTC. [Sources: The Guardian; CNN; Fox; The Observer; International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

47. Sept. 4-5, 2001 - A freshman at Brooklyn's New Utrecht High School who had recently emigrated from Pakistan reportedly predicts the destruction of the World Trade Center a week prior to the 9-11 attacks, according to the JournalNews newspaper in White Plains, N.Y. Citing "three police sources and a city official familiar with the investigation" as well as confirmation from the FBI that the bureau had received this information, the paper reported that in the midst of a heated class discussion the student pointed to the World Trade Center from a third story window and said, "Do you see those two buildings? They won't be standing there next week." New York City Board of Education spokeswoman Catie Marshall confirmed for the JournalNews "that school officials reported the matter to police within minutes of the Sept. 11 attack" and students told the paper that "FBI agents and NYPD detectives descended on the school on Sept. 13 to interrogate the student [who made the prediction] and others in his class," which was "an English class for Arab-American students." [Source: The JournalNews, Oct. 11, 2001, http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/101101/11warumors.html]

48. Sept. 5, 2001 - "Five hundred websites -- many of them with an Arab or Muslim connection -- crash when an anti-terrorism taskforce raids InfoCom Corp. in Texas," reported Britain's the Guardian on Sept. 10, 2001. A taskforce of approximately 80 federal agents and officials from the FBI, Secret Service, INS, Customs, Bureau of Diplomatic Security, IRS, and Commerce Department occupied InfoCom's office building in the Dallas suburb of Richardson, Texas for four days, "copying every hard disc they could find." InfoCom hosts many websites for Middle Eastern clients and is located across the street from the Holy Land Foundation, a charitable organization which has been alleged to have connections with terrorist groups. InfoCom's vice president of marketing, Ghassan Elashi, is also the chairman of the Holy Land Foundation. [Source: The Guardian, Sept. 10, 2001, http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,549590,00.html]

49. Sept. 7, 2001 - Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida website listing of Governor's executive orders]

50. Sept. 6-7, 2001 - Put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) totaling 4,744 are purchased on United Air Lines stock, as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the United puts are purchased through Deutschebank/A.B. Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), http://www.ict.org.il/, Sept. 21, 2001 (Note:The ICT article on possible terrorist insider trading appeared eight days *after* the 9/11 attacks.); The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal; The San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 29, 2001]

51. Sept. 10, 2001 - Put options totaling 4,516 are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: Herzliyya Institute - above]

52. Sept. 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by United and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600 percent above normal. This at a time when Reuters (Sept. 10) issues a business report stating, "Airline stocks may be poised to take off."

53. Sept. 6-10, 2001 - Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25 percent of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the Sept. 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above;
FTW, Oct. 18, 2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/oct152001.html]

54. 2001-2002 - It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad, and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported as recently as June 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden's possession and, as a result of recent stories by Fox, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least summer 2002. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; Fox, Oct. 16, 2001;
FTW, Oct. 26, 2001, - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/11_19_01_magic_carpet.html
FTW, Vol. IV, No. 6, Sept. 18, 2001 - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/sept1801.html;
FTW, Vol. III, No. 7, Sept. 30, 2000 - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/052401_promis.html]

55. Sept. 9, 2001 - President George W. Bush is presented with detailed war plans to overthrow Al Qaeda, according to U.S. and foreign sources speaking to NBC News. [Source: MSNBC, May 16, 2002. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

[B-Man]

Even if all of those "facts" were true, it would not prove the conspiracy you are alleging about 9/11. For example, there very well may have been unusual stock trading in American and United before the attacks--but that doesn't mean Bush knew about the attacks. It just means, probably, that someone knew, most likely the financial supporters of the terrorists (Bin Laden). It also could just be a coincidence (as are many of the facts in that list, I am sure).

I also highly question the veracity of many of those alleged "facts". The list you provided is an interesting mix of facts and unsubstantiated reports, much (if not all) of it from thewilderness.com.

[Dynasty]

there very well may have been unusual stock trading in American and United before the attacks.

I believe the stock trading information is accurate. Somebody profited substantially in the days prior to the 9/11 attacks.

This is from snopes.com- an urban myth debunker site.

Claim: In the days just prior to the September 11 terrorist attacks, the stocks of United and American Airlines were shorted by parties unknown.
Status: True.

Origins: On 11 September 2001, four planes were hijacked and used in the Attack on America: American Airlines Flight 11 leaving Boston bound for Los Angeles, American Airlines Flight 77 leaving Washington bound for Los Angeles, United Airlines Flight 175 leaving Boston bound for Los Angeles, and United Airlines Flight 93 leaving Newark bound for San Francisco. Each of these planes was deliberately crashed, killing all on board -- two into the World Trade Center towers, one into the Pentagon, and one into a field in Pennsylvania. (Only the delay in takeoff of UA Flight 93 and the actions of the alerted passengers on board prevented it from becoming yet another instrument of destruction resulting in an even greater loss of life.)

The operation had taken years to plan, and the perpetrators knew well in advance which airlines would be affected.

In the month prior to the 11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, highly unusual trading activity involving American and United Airlines stock was noted by market analysts who at the time had no idea what to make of it. Wildly unusual discrepancies in the put and call ratio -- 25 to 100 times normal -- were observed in stock options of the two airlines. In one case, Bloomberg's Trade Book electronic trading system identified option volume in UAL (parent of United Airlines) on 16 August 2001 that was 36 times higher than usual.

(Options are wagers that the price of a 100-share block of a particular stock will rise or fall by a certain date. "Puts" are "shorts" -- bets the stock price will fall. "Calls" are bets the price will rise. Thus, one who has reason to believe a particular company is about to suffer a terrible reversal of fortune would purchase "puts" against that entity's stock.)

But it was during the final few trading days (the market closes on weekends) that the most unusual variances in activity occurred. Bloomberg data show that on 6 September, the Thursday before that black Tuesday, put-option volume in UAL stock was nearly 100 times higher than normal -- 2,000 versus 27 on the previous day.

On 6 and 7 September, the Chicago Board Options Exchange handled 4,744 put options for United Airlines' stock, translating into 474,000 shares, compared with just 396 call options, or 39,600 shares. On a day that the put-to-call ratio should have been roughly 1:1 (no negative news stories about United had broken), it was instead 12:1.

On 10 September, another uneventful news day, American Airlines' option volume was 4,516 puts and 748 calls, a ratio of 6:1 on yet another day when by rights these options should have been trading even.

No other airline stocks were affected -- only United and American were shorted in this fashion.

Accelerated investments speculating a downturn in the value of Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch (two New York investment firms severely damaged by the World Trade Center attack) were also observed.

The Chicago Board Options Exchange is investigating each of these trades and at this time is declining to offer comment on its progress. The volume traded and the one-sidedness of the trades, however, make it clear that those who had knowledge of the details of the attacks (which airlines would be involved and that the World Trade Center was a target) were behind them and stood to profit mightily from them.

[B-Man]

I don't question the unusual trading pattern, and I don't question some of the other facts in that report which have been reported by reputable sources (there are other "facts" which I think are anything but, though). But the unusual trading does not prove that Bush knew about 9/11 ahead of time. It just indicates that someone knew.

[brad]

well the 'conspiracy theory' is that 911 was planned (a la the northwood documents circa 1960 that show a strikingly similiar plan) to bring about an end to americans fundamental rights and a police state, etc.

but of course since none of that is happening and americans enjoy more freedom than ever its obviously false on the face of it.

[B-Man]

9/11 was planned--by Arab terrorists including Osama Bin Ladin, not by George W. Bush. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. Don't use conclusions to justify your theories, use evidence (if you have any). The string of "facts" which was provided was interesting reading, but a good chunk of it was fiction and the rest does nothing to prove the conspiracy which is alleged.

[brad]

since you brought it up what is the evidence against bin laden?

aside from the tape which is debatably a fake. (there was a thing on drudge report where latest audio only is demonstrably a fake or something.)

anyway with the full weight of the US after him i dont see bin laden lasting long once we invade afghanistan.

[The_Baron]

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of the stock market. Honestly, my main interest in it has been in corellating its variations in terms of strategic events such as the 9/11 attacks. Unfortunately, I haven't done a great deal of investigation specific to this situation as the RealWorld(tm) has kept me busy with other things.
Anyway, my question is this. How many individuals would it take to generate the anomalous trading relating to the specific entities damaged in the attacks? Ie, could the trades have been done by ten well organized men? Would it take fifty? Five hundred? How many of the various puts and calls could a single individual generate if he were working through an already extant set of international contacts? (Could one person send out e-mail to his cronies in a dozen major trade centers and tell them, "Take the following actions on 10 September in regards to the following company's stocks"?
The information I'm seeing posted doesn't necessarily point towards a conspiracy on the part of the US government. More realistically towards a spectacular lack of communication among the various intelligence gathering organizations. Also it strikes me that if the agency conducting the attacks had the infrastructure to make the purchases and sales necessary, taking the actions you describe would be a perfectly valid way of both obtaining additional hard financial advantage as well as generating international financial damage in conjunction with the attacks. What's more, the timing and targeting of the market trades indicates that there was little effort to conceal the connection with the attacks. Make a few bucks as a result of the attack. Put a bug up the collective financial ass of the US and its trade partners and put up a big show that you're not just a bunch of unsophisticated neanderthals who lucked into pilot's licenses.
The world of "high finance" is something that's viewed in an almost religious light by a large portion of both the western world and the traditional Muslim nations. Oil is money, money is finance, finance is power, Allah gave the Muslim the oil, ergo Allah has given the Muslim the power over the finances. By having these market discrepencies come out, it gives the attackers another tool to use in showing their followers the righteousness of their cause. "See, oh my brothers in the true Faith? Allah gave us the power to disrupt even the greatest financial structures in the evil western world, truly our path is right."
For what it's worth, the asiatic steppes oil reserves are essentially a non-issue in light of the 9/11 attacks. Reports indicate anywhere between 35 and 150 billion dollars of investment and assurances given to the Kazak, Tajik, Uzbek and Turkmen governments to assist in development of these oil resources. Those developments are anywhere between five and twenty-five years out assuming the best case scenarious. And from my understanding of that part of the world, the western developers simply can't expect the best case to develop. That is an area of the world where there are more tribes, sects and clans than the United States has counties. The governments most certainly don't cooperate with each other unless it's clearly in their financial and political interest. In addition, there is a broad cultural imperative of profound independence. The Tatars want to get the goods without help from the Kazakhi. The Turkmen don't want to have to lose face by accepting "help" from the Kazakhi. Just the political wrangling to get the pipeline and it's infrastructure in place is a matter for decades of political infighting. Yes, the steppes oil reserves are important to the world at large. No, they're not particularly important to the immediate needs that Al Qaeda and the rest are trying to achieve. Bin Laden is many things, but he's not stupid. He most certainly knows that disrupting the US economy is not going to expedite the oil producing power of the steppes people.

[B-Man]

I don't see any reason why the trades could not have been initiated with one person who had the money and resources to do so.

[brad]

true but when was the last time a multimillion dollar trade was untracable?

its the fact that the traders were and remain anonymous that is suspicious and points to the fact that he(they) must have had confederates in bank or traders or something which is not too much of a stretch since (big time) drug traffickers have such relationships.

[B-Man]

true but when was the last time a multimillion dollar trade was untracable?

We don't necessarily know that the transactions were untraceable. We just know that we have been given little information about them. There could be many different reasons for that (some, but not all, of which would support your theory).

its the fact that the traders were and remain anonymous that is suspicious and points to the fact that he(they) must have had confederates in bank or traders or something which is not too much of a stretch since (big time) drug traffickers have such relationships.

That is very possible. But it still doesn't mean Bush was involved. It could mean that the terrorists have allies in powerful places.

[brad]

agree 100%

[sourwhiskystrait]

There is no conspiracy theory. It is rather apparent that US intelligence knew what was going to happen, and did nothing to stop it. If they stopped it then there would be no massive military increase in spending, no massive intelligence increase in spending, no oil grab, and W.Bush would have a popularity rating of about 35%(considering the state of the economy.) When this is coupled with the election in 2000(in which the intelligence community used tactics that they use to reserve for fixing foreign elections), it is clear that civilian control of the government has passed once again to the men in the shadows. The last time something so blatantly clear as this transpired was the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

[The_Baron]

Okay, I want to make sure I understand this. A single person could have initiated all of the trades involved in the list above? So given that, and given that Osama bin Laden was worth somewhere above $135 million(US) before the attacks; one of his subordinates could have conducted all of the trading shown? What sort of actual cash outlay would be involved in these trades? Ie, how much actual, documentable money would be required for these trades to go through without any sort of special circumstances?

[MMMMMM]

My overall impression is that they knew something was probably going to happen and they had some pieces of the puzzle, but they didn't know exactly what, when, or how.

It appears to me to point to lack of coordination between various agencies and incomplete assimilation of the available information, rather than precise foreknowledge and conspiracy to allow the attack to occur.

Let's just suppose they had a more complete picture than I am guessing. How complete a picture would it have to be before they could actually have stopped it? Maybe they would have had to know the exact time and flight numbers or it would have slipped through anyway, or they would have needed to have a pretty sure list of some of the hijackers in advance.

Just knowing that it could involve airliners and some possible targets and having a rough window of time isn't nearly the same as precise foreknowledge. Also bear in mind that there are all sorts of vague threats on a regular basis and it is hard to know which threats represent actual dangers and which can be accorded less significant status. Obviously there were a lot of warning signs about something major in the works, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the government knew exactly when, where, and how the disaster would occur. And without such precise foreknowledge it might have been impossible to prevent. Even having a pretty good idea of wha,t where, and how might not have been enough to prevent it (unless they wanted to ground a great many commercial flights for a fairly long stretch of time on less than certain information--which would of course cost the economy a bundle and create all sorts of other major problems--and still might not stop it).

[B-Man]

I'm not sure why you are so focused on this issue--whether one person or 10 would have been required, a single wealthy individual could arrange for enough people to assist to him carry out these trades.

[IrishHand]

Frankly, it didn't matter who knew about the possible bombings or how much they knew. The terrorists could have announced months ahead of time their general plan to hikack planes and ram them into buildings (as they did), and the 'intelligence' community would have been able to do little about it even if they wanted to (which I suspect they didn't for a variety of reasons, including many of those enumerated above).

Generally speaking, our government agencies act in a manner consistent with the (admittedly ignorant) desires of the American people (or at least those members of the American people with the time, money or interest to express themselves politically). Frankly, Americans simply weren't all that concerned about terrorist attacks prior to 9/11. Do you have any idea what the reaction would have been prior to 9/11 if people had been subjected to the type of security-related scrutiny in airports and elsewhere that's now commonplace? Even with 9/11, there was still a considerable amount of resentment and bitterness about the long lines at airports, the inability to bring aboard even toenail scissors, and the necessity of showing up hours early simply to make a flight, etc. There's absolutely no way that Americans would have tolerated that. You think Bush or anyone else wanted to associate himself with something guaranteed to be near-universally unpopular? Not in this lifetime (or term, as the case may be).

A devastating terrorist attack prior to 9/11 was a near-certainty due to our foreign policy in the Middle East. Our goverment told us that AND the terrorists told us that. If people then had been willing to make the sacrifices they appear to be now, then prehaps they wouldn't have been able to do 9/11 in the way that they were. Of course, they'd have figured out another way to do something similarly devastating, but such is life.

Irish

[The_Baron]

The fact a single person could do it is exactly what I was getting at. I tend to try to apply Occam's Razor when it comes to matters of politics. In this case, the simplest solution to the problem is that someone in the organization who knew of the attacks took advantage of them in the stock market. There's just not a lot that points to a vast outside conspiracy of silence.

[Chris Alger]

Bush might not give a damn about "the oil" per se, but political control over Middle East engergy resources and the flow of petrodollars the create are the fundamental concerns. As for Saddam being a threat to world security, one could ascertain the truth of this by asking "the world" about how much of a threat he constitutes. Through the UN, it's been done, and the answer is: not enough to support U.S. efforts to topple him.

[sucka]

We've got a lot more than oil fields to think about over there. The Iraqi people (non-militants) hate America. They hate everything that we stand for. They hate democracy, they hate our culture, they hate our goverment and they hate our military. They will certainly not take American and NATO forces bombing their homes and neighborhoods, killing their friends and family members and bringing down their government lightly. I believe that a war with Iraq will be very simliar to the Vietnam conflict. We will be fighting the "region" - not just Iraq. Our forces will also have to adopt the moniker used early on in the Vietnam conflict - that is, "to win the hearts and minds" of the people in the region. Based on how they feel about us at this point - that task is going to be more difficult than taking over the country by using military force.

Another important thing tokKeep in mind that most middle-eastern nations aren't democracies - with the exception of Isreal, I can't think of another one off the top of my head. Many countries in the region DO NOT want to see a democratic goverment take a foothold anywhere in the region. Look at Saudi Arabia for example - this is one of their biggest concerns and why they have not allowed the US to use it's bases to launch a military strike against Iraq. The last thing that the Prince's and Sheik's in Saudi Arabia want is a US backed democracy right next door to them. Even though the Saudi's are reportedly our "friends" - the Saudi people don't like us much more than the Iraqi's do. We are going to have a lot of work to do over there.

While I can't deny that the oil issue is a huge deal - it also has to do with Iraq being a major player in the terrorist game. When Arafat's compound was raided several months ago there was unrefutable evidence that Iraq and Saddam are harboring, training, financing and backing terrorist operations in all parts of the world. No doubt this guy needs to get a .223 round through the temple if just for those actions alone.

Just my $.02

[nicky g]

The US is the last country that wants democracy to spread in the Middle East. Why else do you think it supports the Egyptian government (the biggest beneficiary of US support after Israel), for example, so much? Many of the middle-eastern countries would most-likely elect Iranian-style (please don't taake that to mean I think Iran is a democracy; it isn't) anti-Western governments, and that just wouldn't do, even if they were the people's choice.

[adios]

"They hate everything that we stand for. They hate democracy, they hate our culture, they hate our goverment and they hate our military."

Not sure that the Kurds feel this way. There is an interesting article in the today's Wall Street Journal on the front page about Iraq and establishing a government there. I'll try and post the highlights of the article later.

[sourwhiskystrait]

The FBI has traced the puts to a branch of Duetsche Bank that was formerly owned by Buzz Krongard (no.3 man currently at the CIA)....would you consider him part of the organization?

[B-Man]

The FBI has traced the puts to a branch of Duetsche Bank that was formerly owned by Buzz Krongard (no.3 man currently at the CIA)....would you consider him part of the organization?

1. Source?

2. Even if true, what does that prove? So what if the branch was "formerly owned" by Buzz Krongard--what does that prove?

[The_Baron]

I hate to use the phrase, "it depends", but in this case, It depends. The #3 man at the CIA? The CIA has a Director of Central Intelligence who's probably considered the #1 man. Next it has the Deputy Director of Central Intelligence who's primary function is the strictly administrative aspects of the DCI's office and to fill the DCI functions in his absence or disability. There's a new position called the-- Associate Director of Central Intelligence for Homeland Defense. An entirely make-work position installed because of the perceived need to be, "doing something." His function is almost entirely administrative and acts as a liaison between the other offices of the CIA to coordinate directly with the Seceratary of Homeland Defense. (or whatever it is they're calling him today) . Then we work our way down to Mr. Krongard's position. He's the Executive Director of the CIA.
Note the difference in title. "of the CIA", versus, "of Central Intelligence." His position is essentially analogous to that of a regional bank manager. He manages and oversees the physical operation of the non-intelligence gathering aspects of the organization. His job is to make sure the books balance so the GAO doesn't throw a fit and Congress has a hissy; make sure there's toilet paper and tampons in the ladies room in the Liaison office in Dar es Salaam, etc. He doesn't maintain an actual intelligence manipulation position at all. What's more, while he undoubtably does have access to intelligence products through the good-ol'-boy and backchannel networks, by US security conventions, he's specifically precluded from having access to that information. He's the "ash and trash" guy.
Next in the actuall intelligence chain are the directors of Intelligence and that of Science and Technology and the Directorate of Operations. These are the "Big Kids on the Block" when it comes to having direct access to intelligence product. They manage the actual gathering of information, it's conversion to data and that data's conversion into intelligence.
Now, given his position in the banking community, I'll hazard a guess that Mr. Krongard probably did have inside information relating to the 9/11 attacks. However until something showing he had a direct operational or support role in the overall operation, I can't help but go with Occam's Razor again. Opportunistic and venal, most likely. Directly involved in the attacks, not very likely. While I don't have a great deal of respect for the current administration or Congress, they're not collectively stupid enough to appoint one of the conspirators to a position that, by it's very job description, requires the single most complex and intense background investigation available to modern society. More than that, by his position, he agrees that this investigation remains open and is carried on throughout his career. Essentially an appointed officer of the US intelligence aparatus has to agree to open his back story completely and then agree that he not only can be, but will be subject to an equally intense and ongoing study of virtually every aspect of his life.
While the FBI as an organization isn't one to inspire a great deal of admiration, the bureau does have individual agents who are supremely competent. With the level of intensity inherent in a sub-cabinet level appointee's background and ongoing security surveys, somewhere in that chain of FBI, DIA, State Department, Treasury and all the rest, somewhere in there you will find an honest, honorable agent who actually will uphold his oaths to the Constitution. This is the very reason the system is structured as it is. Yes, it can be blindsided and stonewalled but sheer mass of investigators helps ensure that critical background information gets released.
Do I believe it's possible that he's one of the actual attack conspirators and obtained his appointment as part of some nefarious bargain? Nope, not a chance in hell. His background doesn't place him high enough in the financial world to make him truly invaluable as an overall asset to the terrorists yet it places him too high to be a simple information or data resource. You don't go to a banker and make hints about possible drastic changes in stock values and expect him not to follow up on it. He may well be one of those truly brilliant sorts who compiles information in an immediate gestalt and he realized the hints, buzzes and whispers he'd heard made it a positive expectation to make the stock trades.
As I understand it, the trades he conducted weren't so large that they were likely to bankrupt him individually if they didn't evolve positively in terms of cash return. It could even be as simple as he was playing a "tip" he'd heard fourth hand from a golf buddy at the country club. Potentially large return, minimally risky initial investment costs. Sort of like betting against the line in a sports book. Sometimes it's better to take the longshot if the odds are good enough.
As always, YMMV. He might truly be one of the hidden council of gnomes that engineered a global financial crisis and the 9/11 attacks were simply a part of that. I don't know. All I can go on is the information and data available and how it comes together in a final interpretation.
Who knows, I certainly don't. I'm waiting for the next reel of the film to see what happens. But for now, I don't believe the butler did it and certainly not with the candlestick in the library.

[The_Baron]

damn I'm a wordy bastard... sorry about that...