A strategy of calling down after facing heat...

[chesspain]

Although I have been a solid winner in the Party 2/4 game [ <font color="green"> +2.36 </font>after 25K hands], I have yet to be able to turn a profit playing 3/6 [ <font color="red"> -0.34 </font>after 15K hands]. Consequently, I have spent most of the past few months in the cozy, confines of stress-free 2/4, although I felt that it was time for me to face my fears--and/or my leaks--and return to 3/6, even though my schedule leads me to play mostly during daytime hours EST, when the 3/6 games aren't exactly fish ponds. In addition, given monitor limitations, I play only two tables at a time.

Given the increased amount of aggression I've been facing at 3/6, I played the following two hands with Feeney's advice in mind--which states that when one moves up to a higher limit where the play is more aggressive, it can be a reasonable strategy to simply call down aggressive players when one has a good, but not great, hand. In each hand, PT stats suggested that my opponent was TAG, although I did not have enough hands on either player for a reliable read on their post-flop play.


Hand #1:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: chesspain is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, chesspain completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, chesspain calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, chesspain calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, chesspain calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB



Hand 2:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: chesspain is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, chesspain calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, chesspain calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, chesspain calls.

River: (9.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, chesspain calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[Jake (The Snake)]

I play these types of hands similarly and it seems like every time I am ahead the villain catches something. I can't win /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anyway, I'm also interested to know if there is a better way to play these types of hands.... I suck HU.

[shaundeeb]

Only thing I might do differently is raise on hand #2 on the turn for a free showdown. You are calling his bet anyway but he might not bet and let you raise if one of your 6 ours to improve comes.
Also, if you raise the turn and he does a stop and go on the river you can easily fold.

[Nick C]

In hand 1, I think BB quite likely has two pair or maybe a set (and a boat by the river), but I would probably call down too, hoping to see T /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif or something.

I'd feel like I was making a crying call on the river, though, since now my kicker doesn't even play.

Hand 2: I would consider folding to the flop raise but then probably call anyway.

Then, after I'd picked up four new potential outs on the turn, I'd call again.

On the river, I guess I might make the crying call, but I really doubt Button is continuing to fire with AK. Once in awhile, after making the crying call, I would be pleasantly surprised, though.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Only thing I might do differently is raise on hand #2 on the turn for a free showdown. You are calling his bet anyway but he might not bet and let you raise if one of your 6 ours to improve comes.
Also, if you raise the turn and he does a stop and go on the river you can easily fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize in Hand #2 that I'm out of position, so checkraising is unlikely to get to me a free showdown--but is very likely to get me three-bet when I pretty much have to call the reraise given my gutshot outs.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I have been a solid winner in the Party 2/4 game [ <font color="green"> +2.36 </font>after 25K hands], I have yet to be able to turn a profit playing 3/6 [ <font color="red"> -0.34 </font>after 15K hands]. Consequently, I have spent most of the past few months in the cozy, confines of stress-free 2/4, although I felt that it was time for me to face my fears--and/or my leaks--and return to 3/6, even though my schedule leads me to play mostly during daytime hours EST, when the 3/6 games aren't exactly fish ponds. In addition, given monitor limitations, I play only two tables at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my (somewhat limited) experience, Party 3/6 is significantly more difficult than Party 2/4. I think a big part of the reason for this is that you just don't get paid off as well when you have a big hand. I'm over 10K hands in and am still trying to adjust.

And I mostly play in the evening/late-night hours, when I'd imagine the games are better.

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
Only thing I might do differently is raise on hand #2 on the turn for a free showdown. You are calling his bet anyway but he might not bet and let you raise if one of your 6 ours to improve comes.
Also, if you raise the turn and he does a stop and go on the river you can easily fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm missing something here. Why is throwing out 2 BB on the turn to buy the possibility of a "free" showdown better than paying a guaranteed maximum of 2 BB to see the showdown?

[wildwood]

Hand #1, I probably would not 3 bet tp no kicker on a 2 flush board with possible straight draws. AJ, AK, is a gutshot with overcards, and KJ or J9 is a nice open ender. The bb flop cap probably means the flop hit him pretty hard or he's got a great draw. I don't put him on an overpair since no pf raise. I think calling down here is reasonable since alot of draws didn't get there.


Hand #2, The button may have reraised pf to fold the blinds out and isolate. I probably would not lead into the pf 3 better with 2nd pair. I think calling down here works; it may induce bluffing here if he has overcards.

Being out of position on both hands makes it more difficult.

just my 2c (I'm learning myself)

[nubs]

In hand one I do not understand the threebet on the flop. Do you think he has a worse queen a ten or a draw most of the time? A reasonable player would want to keep in the third player. If this is an opponent who frequently uses the free card play a stop-n-go seems like a good plan. Then when faced with agression on the big street his hand is better defined. Enough of my rambling back to lurking.

[AdamL]

Hand #1 -- why do you give so much action on the flop here? Seriously, I don't, so I'm asking.

[rmarotti]

I'd do it because people raise the flop a lot when they shouldn't. Only the cap is mildly annoying.

[chesspain]

Well, I won one and lost one:

In Hand 1, opponent showed K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, and MHIG

In Hand 2, opponent showed A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and MHING.

[WillMagic]

First hand is fine.

Second hand...I'm leaning towards a river fold. AK and AJ check behind on the river - so when he bets I can't put him on a single hand you beat.

EDIT: Just to let you know, I did not read the results before posting this...

Will

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the increased amount of aggression I've been facing at 3/6, I played the following two hands with Feeney's advice in mind--which states that when one moves up to a higher limit where the play is more aggressive, it can be a reasonable strategy to simply call down aggressive players when one has a good, but not great, hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I think I take this idea too far, but when I'm up against very aggressive players, I find myself doing this a lot too.

[Garbonzo]

Some options I considered when reading these hands.

Hand 1: When raised on the flop, I am unlikelty to 3 bet this hand. Though honestly I do not believe I am agressive enough, so it could very well be wrong. However, I would checkraise a safe turncard. And either lead the river again on a safe card or check to induce a bet from a worse hand or missed draw.

Hand 2: I usually cap 10-10 preflop. People tend to say things like "this lets you see where you are" or "defines your hand", and while I am not sure how true these statements tend to be. In this case it may allow you to get away from the hand when villain continues with pressure....assuming he/she is reasonable....

I am suprised that I didn't see mentions of either of these in the comments. That is, hand 1, checkraise a safe turn, hand 2, cap preflop....and it makes me wonder if my advice is way off baase?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Some options I considered when reading these hands.

Hand 1: When raised on the flop, I am unlikelty to 3 bet this hand. Though honestly I do not believe I am agressive enough, so it could very well be wrong. However, I would checkraise a safe turncard. And either lead the river again on a safe card or check to induce a bet from a worse hand or missed draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with waiting until the turn to checkraise is that if my opponent is on a draw (on this draw-heavy board), then he may check behind on the turn--unless he has a very good hand, if which case I may well get three-bet.




[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I usually cap 10-10 preflop. People tend to say things like "this lets you see where you are" or "defines your hand", and while I am not sure how true these statements tend to be. In this case it may allow you to get away from the hand when villain continues with pressure....assuming he/she is reasonable....

I am suprised that I didn't see mentions of either of these in the comments. That is, hand 1, checkraise a safe turn, hand 2, cap preflop....and it makes me wonder if my advice is way off baase?

[/ QUOTE ]

What surprises me is that not a single respondant has suggested that in Hand 2 I consider checkraising the flop(?)

[Garbonzo]

Hand 1: That makes sense. I think it is very opponent dependent, after the flop raise many seem to follow through with a turn raise regqrdless if they hit the flop.....but your comment feels right.

Hand 2: When you checkraise the flop, then what's the plan if 3 bet, and if he calls and then raises the turn, are you calling down or can you get away from it? I ask because I feel like I often loose more than necessary in these situations.

Do you think capping with 10-10 is wrong?

[WillMagic]

Heh...yeah, I missed that whole leading out on the flop thing.

Honestly I don't think it matters that much whether you lead out or check-raise here, because you really aren't going to know if he has AK or not until he makes his river decision, and check-raising won't change that.

Will

[wildwood]

Hand#2 If you cap preflop, it makes it harder to get away from the hand if you get a flop/action you don't like, but I'm more likely to cap against a loose player. I think the flop ck raise is a good idea with the intention of folding to a 3 bet. Gives you a chance to get away from the hand on the cheap street. If he just calls the ck raise, I think your pocket pair has a chance.

my 2c

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
What surprises me is that not a single respondant has suggested that in Hand 2 I consider checkraising the flop(?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered it (before responding), but I decided this:

(1) A checkraise could be good if Button holds specifically JJ and will fold it. And actually, getting MP2 to fold JJ, if he will and by some chance that's what he has, would also be good, so long as you're ahead of Button.

(2) However, if you're ahead, most likely the only unique overcard you have to worry about from MP2 is a jack (unless by some chance Button has 88/77). I guess if MP2 has a jack, he may have some straight potential too, but you do hold two of the tens.

(3) I thought it would be hard to get Button to give up with AK prior to the river anyway. Upon reflection, though, I'm not so sure about this, since he's decent and might worry about being reverse-dominated on a turn blank.

Hmm. I think there's a better case to be made for a flop checkraise than I realized at first. However, there is also a good chance you're behind and Villain won't fold. But if he 3-bets the flop, it would be easier to get away from your hand unimproved on the turn, and the same is true if he waits and then pops the turn. Taking a line that involves folding prior to the river would give up your chance of spiking a set, though. (But in the bet-call line you actually took, I think I would have seriously considered check-folding the turn instead of check-calling, if I hadn't picked up gutshot outs. On the other hand, if I did check-fold the turn, the chances I'd just dumped the best hand would be better than they would be if I had taken a flop checkraise line and had gotten played back at.)

All right. I guess I think it's complicated. A flop checkraise seems like a decent play to me, and so does leading the flop instead.