Checking TP twice?

[Subfallen]

Ok, I started the OIC thingie yesterday just to get some action in while I'm re-tooling my short-handed game.

Comments on all streets welcome. Pre-flop limp iffy? Anyways, my main question is whether anybody leads the turn after a whiffed flop C/R.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 folds, UTG calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[Spicymoose]

You must lead the turn. As for the flop, I think I would bet, hoping to get raised, and 3-bet.

[KDawgCometh]

don't really like the PF limp all too much. I'd fold that there. to me KJo is either raise or fold, and utg+1 is too early to raise, so I think its a fold. I think maybe betting out on teh turn, could let you get in more bets right there, but it looks alright to me. I hope you were going for a CR on the flop

[shant]

This limp sucks. Just bet the turn.

[RiverTheNuts]

I fold here too and my VPIP is pretty high...

After the flop checks through you gotta lead the turn, no one is gonna buy that you checked top pair, people love betting into PF raisers with top pair like that...

So check raise flop, and if that fails, bet/3bet turn and lead river... nh

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
You must lead the turn. As for the flop, I think I would bet, hoping to get raised, and 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the flop, but I wouldn't 3-bet if raised. That's just spewing. Sure, he could have a worse hand, but AJ and QQ-AA are in his PF raising range I would assume (not being given a read). If raised, I'd check-call the turn and either lead or check the river depending. If he just calls the flop, I might check raise the turn.

[Subfallen]

Edited to add: replying to SpicyMoose, this forum is more responsive than others. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thx for the post. B/c I don't have a great feel for hand strengths in full ring games, I wasn't quite sure where I would be if I lead and was raised.

Thus, I wanted to check-raise for two reasons: (1) value from UTG (he would probably fold a 2, 3-outer facing two cold if I lead and PFR raises); (2) information where I'm at.

I am very interested to learn if I was overlooking an important factor here. Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind leading the flop?

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
This limp sucks. Just bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this limp does suck in hindsight.

[RiverTheNuts]

alot of times leading makes you look weak, but on this flop it gives away your hand big time... check raise, force overcards to call you, and then lead the whole way and let him chase his ace out or call down with TT

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]

I would bet the flop, but I wouldn't 3-bet if raised. That's just spewing. Sure, he could have a worse hand, but AJ and QQ-AA are in his PF raising range

[/ QUOTE ]

I am unsure if 3-betting is the right move, but I do think it has merits. Sure MP could have us beat if he raises us, but he could also have 99, TT, KQs, ATs, KTs, AK or AQ with a diamond. If he is a bad player he could have an even broader range of hands. Furthermore, if UTG calls the 2 bets, 3-betting seems to be getting more value.

I can see why simply calling a flop raise might be right, as we could be behind, but against many players I think a 3-bet would be correct.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind leading the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Going for the check raise sets you up for giving a free card, which is quite devastating if it happens. Also, I believe leading gives you the opportunity to 3-bet, which might be a good move.

[RiverTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind leading the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Going for the check raise sets you up for giving a free card, which is quite devastating if it happens. Also, I believe leading gives you the opportunity to 3-bet, which might be a good move.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this is true, only the weakest SSHE players will check the button after raising PF when checked to on a non scary flop like this... Button checking here means monster more often than it does AK/AQ/TT and below

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind leading the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Going for the check raise sets you up for giving a free card, which is quite devastating if it happens. Also, I believe leading gives you the opportunity to 3-bet, which might be a good move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm...looks like I may need to consider lead-3-betting more often, thx.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
only the weakest SSHE players will check the button after raising PF when checked to on a non scary flop like this

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it happens enough. Not everyone can be a cool TAG.