Hit gin on the flop!

[howzit]

1-2NL live in NYC (6 handed, i think)

Me: $~650 (loose and fast)
MP: $~500ish. (TAGish)

MP is probably an average player at best understands pot odds but probably not much more than that. Also, very timid against me.

he opens for $12 in MP and I try to steal in the BB w/88. I make it $40. He calls quick and I feel some strength coming from him.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

How would you stack this guy off?

[LetYouDown]

Bet 3/4 of the pot on the flop. Go from there.

[The_Bends]

If he's TAG then you'll have him on an overpair or AK, possibly AQ. Lets asume for the moment he has te overpair, not unreasonable given your read. In which case he may well see this as the ideal opportunity to play back at you where as before he didn't have a strong enough hand to justify it. With that in mind I like a weak lead here. Obviously you don't fear the flush so if he has AhKh then you'll get him along for the ride as well.

So flop pot must be $82 or so, I'd lead for $50, overpair and AKs will both play back at you. I'd call then check the turn making it look like a poorly played steal hopefully this guy will see his chance to get one over you and raise the turn. In which case I'd call and value bet the river (which he almost has to call with a strong overpair because its almost impossible to put you on a hand. If he checks the turn then I'd have to think his holding wasn't that strong and you were never going to get his whole stack, a river value bet would milk a little more from the hand.

Overall the plan is strong at first then let him take over the hand (which he should if he is TAG) then take it back from him at the river.

[thabadguy]

I agree the conventional way would be to lead into him.
But if he is a TAG(more aggressive than normal). How about a check-call, check-call, check-raise?
I had it work against a very good player when i had 7's and the flop came 733. He paid off his whole stack with KK.

[Richie Rich]

Whatever you do, don't slowplay it. Bet out, hope he raises you, then take it from there. If he is the tight-weakie that you say, then he should definitely raise for information and protect his overpair from a possible flush draw. After he bets, you can either re-raise on the flop, just call and bet out on the turn, or call and set up for a check-raise on the turn/river.

Even though you have the best hand on the flop, if you think about it, there are quite a few cards you wouldn't want to see on 4th or 5th. For one, another /images/graemlins/heart.gif is likely to shut the tight-weakie down. And if he has KK/QQ, then any Ace would kill your action as well. And if you read him for KK/QQ, then obviously you wouldn't want to see either of those face cards as well.

This is one of those situations when it's very +EV to have a LAG image at the table against a timid TAG who is willing to give you action. Playing this hand "cute" is the last thing you want to do.

[howzit]

thx, just wanted to confirm. I lead the flop, he raised, i called.

Then the turn brought an ace and killed the action. I underbet the river and he folded.

It was sad.

[LetYouDown]

The reason I don't like the bet/raise/just call line is because of exactly what happened. Any A, K or Q on the turn is a scare card for you and you can out-think yourself. I reraise enough to make the turn/river play brainless.

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree the conventional way would be to lead into him.
But if he is a TAG(more aggressive than normal). How about a check-call, check-call, check-raise?
I had it work against a very good player when i had 7's and the flop came 733. He paid off his whole stack with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this line. Unfortunately, he wasn't that aggressive, more on the weaker side of TAG.

But that is a great line. I will definitely consider this. BTW, did you raise preflop when you had sevens?

[thabadguy]

He raised from MP,I reraised on the button.

[psuasskicker]

I like leading out for 1/2 to 3/4 the size of the pot (that low cause overcards may follow you for it, though I lean toward a 3/4 bet here). You'll get paid off if he has an overpair, and he likely won't bet into you with just overcards anyway. The ONLY advantage to checking here is if he has overcards and catches one on the turn. If he's on bare overcards 50% of the time (overpair the other 50%), that means there's about a 6% chance of that happening...not valuable enough to be worth slowplaying. And if he's on an overpair he'll either call to chase you down, or raise you and you get paid.

If he just calls, I like checking the turn and calling the inevidible bet, and then leading into the river. I think that play screams for an overpair to call you and you should be able to get most if not all of his chips depending on the size of his turn bet.

If he raises you on the flop, I'd call it and bet out on the turn. You'll get paid off 99.999% of the time when that happens no matter how you play it. I like playing it that way cause it's a play that will get noticed and should set you up nicely for later.

How about a check-call, check-call, check-raise?

Most people with KK will pay you off there anyway. Check-call check-call check-raise won't work against overcards there cause overs will shut down quickly if the flop bet doesn't work (unless they hit, and they still might shut down). A nice overpair will come with you most if not all of the way while you're betting, and I like the image play of betting with a monster a WHOLE lot more than just check calling with it all the way.

Even though you have the best hand on the flop, if you think about it, there are quite a few cards you wouldn't want to see on 4th or 5th.

A FANTASTIC point! You slowplay when you think the next card can help the person improve. Maybe the next card would, but there are too many cards that could completely kill action for you. Add to that my law of exponentially increasing returns by betting earlier and I think there's too much downside to checking this flop.

I lead the flop, he raised, i called.

Then the turn brought an ace and killed the action. I underbet the river and he folded.

It was sad.

I think you maximized what you could win here, so don't feel too bad about it. You had all the good cards and still took down what I'm sure was a good sized pot. Be happy you got any action at all...he could always have folded to your PF reraise, you know!

The reason I don't like the bet/raise/just call line is because of exactly what happened. Any A, K or Q on the turn is a scare card for you and you can out-think yourself. I reraise enough to make the turn/river play brainless.

The problem is, if he's on a hand that's going to be afraid of an Ace falling on the turn, how can he possibly stand up to a reraise on the flop? He's got an opponent that's bet into him at every available opportunity out of position. It's VERY difficult to put his opponent on less than AA there, and the ONLY way you'll get more action is if he's on KK and overplays them.

Here's a situation where you're going to kill action with your reraise if a card can kill action on the turn, so reraising doesn't provide you any value.

- C -

[freemoney]

how can you check-call with position?

also stack sizes are important

[thabadguy]

Im sorry, im being totally idiotic, messed 5 posts up in the last 15 mins.
I raised in mp, he reraised on button, i called.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry, im being totally idiotic, messed 5 posts up in the last 15 mins.
I raised in mp, he reraised on button, i called.

[/ QUOTE ]this is a totally diffrent situation. TOTALLY. hero has gotta bet this flop. if the guy has AA/KK... hes going BROKE. you dont have to slowplay.