WA/WB with AQs (I think) and some river clarkmeistering. [Archive]

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A_C_Slater

05-20-2005, 02:23 PM

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Villian is button (a mulitabler who seems weak tight postflop and plays stuff like K9o in MP.) MP1 seems solid and could have a wide range of open raising hands here so I 3bet, but against unknowns I usually call with AQs as per SSHE suggestion.

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP1 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, 2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

WA/WB line here?

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

I decide to abandon the WA/WB line now that the 3rd heart hits so I can better set him up for a clarkmeistering on the river.

River: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

AC bets..... (folding to raise)

btspider

05-20-2005, 02:29 PM

i'd still check call the turn.

Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ type hands will often bet the turn.. while you just let a heartless QQ make a fold.

i don't think a heartless AK folds the river, so the clark river bet is focused on getting calls from worse hands... the chances of which you are hurting by betting the turn.

btw, your response to a turn raise?

DMBFan23

05-20-2005, 02:30 PM

I like preflop a lot against MPs in general, you should be 3 betting them with AQs IMO. it's the EP raisers that I coldcall against. the fact that he's raising a lot here makes it automatic IMO.

postflop is interesting because he is now more likely to check behind KK or QQ with a heart. I like the reasoning here, I have never tried it so I can't wsay how often it works. what I usually do with my monster hands is check call the flop then bet-3 bet the turn, so it's interesting that your line looks like that. I wonder how it turns out.

A_C_Slater

05-20-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd still check call the turn.

Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ type hands will often bet the turn.. while you just let a heartless QQ make a fold.

i don't think a heartless AK folds the river, so the clark river bet is focused on getting calls from worse hands... the chances of which you are hurting by betting the turn.

btw, your response to a turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Impeccable reasoning.

But would you check/call the flop?

I call a turn raise because of K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK or Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q and check fold river if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits of course.

btspider

05-20-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But would you check/call the flop?

I call a turn raise because of K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK or Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q and check fold river if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.. the flop cc is fine HU b/c he'll auto-bet everything he capped with. you can't know that the bd flush draw is going to come in and hurt your equity.

i think the great uncertainty of where you stand facing a turn raise makes a turn check-call even more appealing.

Marquis

05-20-2005, 03:29 PM

"clarkmeistering on the river"

Is there a favorite cliche thread? I have a new one.

aK13

05-20-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"clarkmeistering on the river"

Is there a favorite cliche thread? I have a new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see this one that often, since most people don't really know what it is, although I have a feeling there's going to be an outburst of "clarkmeister" type plays who are butchering the use of it since they don't understand it. It's like when the May magazine issue came out and everyone read the WA/WB article, everyone tried to use it when they had no clue how to evaluate a WA/WB situation or understand why it was the best play.

Sarge85

05-20-2005, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is button (a mulitabler who seems weak tight postflop and plays stuff like K9o in MP.)

[/ QUOTE ]

K9o = tight?

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

WA/WB line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this line. Why give him immediate credit for AA or AK - just because he capped PF - he could easily have TT-KK

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

I decide to abandon the WA/WB line now that the 3rd heart hits so I can better set him up for a clarkmeistering on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I understand this. So you were hoping for the 4th heart? Interesting - show no fear of the flush, I could see how it could work.

[ QUOTE ]

River: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

AC bets..... (folding to raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep

I still like a flop bet, but I'm curious to see how other respond to the "setting up for a clarkmeister bet"

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

btspider

05-20-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

WA/WB line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this line. Why give him immediate credit for AA or AK - just because he capped PF - he could easily have TT-KK

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't giving him credit for AA/AK. we're giving him credit for a range of hands that we are way ahead of or way behind.. this includes TT-KK.

if TT-KK won't raise us, then we should be quite happy to get one bet in each street regardless of the effect on our aggression factor. why give him a chance to fold by showing no fear of the Ace?

Shillx

05-20-2005, 05:56 PM

i'd still check call the turn.

QQ type hands will often bet the turn.. while you just let a heartless QQ make a fold.

Yeah maybe but maybe not. Against the type of people that we should be using the WA/WB play, they will be taking a free card with a hand that can make a flush more then one that can't make a flush. If we know for sure that any hand with a heart will bet, then we should check/call but it is very opponent specific. If I were the villian for example, I'm checking behind with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif after the hero check/calls the flop.

Brad

Maurader1

05-20-2005, 05:57 PM

why are we playing WA/WB? Are we not WA the majority of the time?

Sarge85

05-20-2005, 06:00 PM

Nice reply -

but it seems like I'm not getting enough value out of my hand though.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Maurader1

05-20-2005, 06:00 PM

Why do we bet the river? If villain has a heart, we lose an extra bet, and if villain has KK/QQ without a heart, I don't think he is calling with a 4flush and an A on board.

Shillx

05-20-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do we bet the river? If villain has a heart, we lose an extra bet, and if villain has KK/QQ without a heart, I don't think he is calling with a 4flush and an A on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm not a big fan of betting the river the way this hand went down. Clark's doesn't really apply here imo since I don't see a worse hand calling here.

Maurader1

05-20-2005, 06:03 PM

Sorry, I don't even know what Clark is...

Sarge85

05-20-2005, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and if villain has KK/QQ without a heart, I don't think he is calling with a 4flush and an A on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse hands will call - "gotta keep you honest...."
and some times better hands will fold (outside of the obvious flush)

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

A_C_Slater

05-20-2005, 06:34 PM

"K9o = weak tight"

I said weak tight postflop . I should have said conservative postflop.

I wasn't hoping for a 4th heart to hit, but if it did it would seem more likely I was betting a flush draw on the turn and now having it hit on the river. I didn't want a heart to fall at all on the river.

Villian showed 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Apparently he is a LAG preflop.