AQs - the s is for sucks

[Zoelef]

I simply misplayed this hand. No reads, table is standard. Is calling the preflop raise okay given position? Is betting the turn stupid or just dumb? Any other crimes against the poker gods I should know about?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB

[Pov]

If you were on the button instead of in the SB I would strongly consider 3-betting this pre-flop after those callers. I would at least complete here every time.

[btspider]

i think you should open check the turn and river.

[aK13]

1. Why aren't we 3betting the river?

2. Why are we betting the turn?

2. I don't know if I agree about the preflop 3bet. Everyone is going to call one more bet, might as well wait to raise later so we don't bloat the pot.

[davelin]

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i think you should open check the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[@bsolute_luck]

we're staying in this hand on the flop because we think CO is bluffing and we have odds to call and then we get better odds thanx to UTGs goofyness?

[istewart]

I wouldn't 3-bet preflop either but it's mainly to do with position IMHO, not this:

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Everyone is going to call one more bet, might as well wait to raise later so we don't bloat the pot.

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[Pov]

I'm not seeing the call on the flop. When the CO bets this I think you have to raise it up to fold out as many of the hands between you as possible. From the looks of it you may have been 3-bet, but that would have told you you were up against a big PP and/or a T. Then you could have avoided betting the turn because you'd know you were unlikely to take it down though you would still be stuck calling now that you've picked up the nut flush draw. BB's play on the turn clearly indicates he has a big 'un he's trying to get max value out of. I would be wary of leading out with my flush without reads that he'd overplay a lone T this way. After the river raise it seems you must be up against a KT in the BB and maybe AA from UTG+1 from the way it played out is my guess.

[Iq75]

Disclaimer: started playing poker only 6 weeks ago, so I probably don’t know what I am talking about.

Having said that,

could one raise the flop after Co bets or is there already so much money in the pot that those who are going to fold are going to do it anyway?

I would check the turn and value 3 - bet the river.

[2+2 wannabe]

i don't like some people's option of 3-betting the flop OOP - although if i was the button i might

if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

that's a terrible flop for you though - i dunno if i could stay around with 4 people (including the PF raiser) behind me.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding AK from UTG+1 would be good if that's what he has. other than that, what are we cleaning up? the paired board has some nice features for us here.

[davelin]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

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What hands are we hoping to fold out?

[2+2 wannabe]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

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What hands are we hoping to fold out?

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wait - we have a kicker - oops /images/graemlins/blush.gif

disregard my message

[Zoelef]

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After the river raise it seems you must be up against a KT in the BB and maybe AA from UTG+1 from the way it played out is my guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct! BB shows KTo and MHING. I figured after his surprise 3-bet on the turn he had at least a T, so I didn't 3-bet incase he hit a boat with K2/KT.

[2+2 wannabe]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

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folding AK from UTG+1 would be good if that's what he has. other than that, what are we cleaning up? the paired board has some nice features for us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying that we win this pot against 6 people as often as against 3? if so don't raise and just call, but with 1.5x2 overcard outs and a backdoor flush draw, for a total of 4.5 outs, our hand isn't very juicy.

we're pretty much drawing dead to anyone with a ten

[Pov]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding AK from UTG+1 would be good if that's what he has. other than that, what are we cleaning up? the paired board has some nice features for us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK seems like a pretty likely holding for him to me (at this point in the hand). I'd like to see him fold his over-pairs too. CO could easily be betting with nothing after it is checked to him.

edit: AQ would be good to see him fold too.

[davelin]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding AK from UTG+1 would be good if that's what he has. other than that, what are we cleaning up? the paired board has some nice features for us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying that we win this pot against 6 people as often as against 3? if so don't raise and just call, but with 1.5x2 overcard outs and a backdoor flush draw, for a total of 4.5 outs, our hand isn't very juicy.

we're pretty much drawing dead to anyone with a ten

[/ QUOTE ]

With a total of 4.5 outs, putting two bets on this flop with the chance of being 3-betted doesn't sound that appealing to me as well.

[ant1969]

After that flop raise with no reads on anyone at the table I'm just calling down to the river as my hearts come as cheaply as possible. There may be a monster lurking but you cant trash that hand without very hard evidence.

[2+2 wannabe]

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if you're going to play after this flop you have to raise to clean up your 6 overcard outs. i don't think this is negotiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding AK from UTG+1 would be good if that's what he has. other than that, what are we cleaning up? the paired board has some nice features for us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying that we win this pot against 6 people as often as against 3? if so don't raise and just call, but with 1.5x2 overcard outs and a backdoor flush draw, for a total of 4.5 outs, our hand isn't very juicy.

we're pretty much drawing dead to anyone with a ten

[/ QUOTE ]

With a total of 4.5 outs, putting two bets on this flop with the chance of being 3-betted doesn't sound that appealing to me as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

[davelin]

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but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

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Sure, it's a gamble but don't always have to play raise or fold when there's a bet in front of you. Since we've established that raising doesn't really clear up any overcard outs, how does raising really increase our chances of winning?

[2+2 wannabe]

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but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, it's a gamble but don't always have to play raise or fold when there's a bet in front of you. Since we've established that raising doesn't really clear up any overcard outs, how does raising really increase our chances of winning?

[/ QUOTE ]

it doesn't - you're right - if you want to play you may as well call

i think folding &gt; calling with a PF raiser checking this harmless board (opening up a check-raise) and having 3 others still to act

but i can be persuaded to think otherwise

[Pov]

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but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

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Sure, it's a gamble but don't always have to play raise or fold when there's a bet in front of you. Since we've established that raising doesn't really clear up any overcard outs, how does raising really increase our chances of winning?

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I don't think we established that at all - though I'm still listening. IMO, if we had raised on this flop we had a good chance of folding not just AK but AQ and PP's that beat us after CO's "I could have anything" bet.

[davelin]

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but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

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Sure, it's a gamble but don't always have to play raise or fold when there's a bet in front of you. Since we've established that raising doesn't really clear up any overcard outs, how does raising really increase our chances of winning?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we established that at all - though I'm still listening. IMO, if we had raised on this flop we had a good chance of folding not just AK but AQ and PP's that beat us after CO's "I could have anything" bet.

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Folding out AK would be nice, I guess AQ too but that's not many hands plus the chances of them out there isn't too huge. What PPs are we hoping to fold out? JJ-AA isn't probably going anywhere nor is probably out there.

[davelin]

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i think folding &gt; calling with a PF raiser checking this harmless board (opening up a check-raise) and having 3 others still to act

but i can be persuaded to think otherwise

[/ QUOTE ]

The pre-flop raiser's action on the flop is weird but when he checks, I don't think it's for the intention of check-raising his overcards or higher pocket pair.

Again it's a gamble but I'm just calling because I don't think this will be raised often. Of course if I was certain it was going to be raised, I would've folded.

[crownjules]

Completing this is fine. You're paying 1.5 SBs to see what will be a decent pot with a good multiway hand.

Not the greatest flop, but it could be worse. With the pot odds you can safely call the two single bets. On the turn, your outs improve, but not enough to give you the equity to bet out. As it played out, I'd definitely would just check/call the river. Without a read, you have to think that BB has either slowplayed 22 or has KT.

UTG+1 had cracked aces?

[Pov]

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but you'd call this flop with 4 still behind us (and the PF raiser)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, it's a gamble but don't always have to play raise or fold when there's a bet in front of you. Since we've established that raising doesn't really clear up any overcard outs, how does raising really increase our chances of winning?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we established that at all - though I'm still listening. IMO, if we had raised on this flop we had a good chance of folding not just AK but AQ and PP's that beat us after CO's "I could have anything" bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding out AK would be nice, I guess AQ too but that's not many hands plus the chances of them out there isn't too huge. What PPs are we hoping to fold out? JJ-AA isn't probably going anywhere nor is probably out there.

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I'm thinking my c/r out of the small blind folds out JJ's and maybe higher though the more I think about it the more I agree they probably aren't out there as they all would have probably bet except maybe AA which is less likely since we hold an A. I do still want to give an extra nudge to fold to those holding hands like 99 or 88 or lower that might think they are good right now as well in case my Ace high is best against the CO.

Actually, I think a lot of my proclivity to raise here is to induce the T to announce itself. Not sure if that is a valid reason or not.

I don't think I would have even really considered just calling here so this discussion has been a good one for me. I'm still not sure I like it, but with the other card being an offsuit 2 I think I can see the call. If it was something more connected or suited to the TT's I still like raising.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking my c/r out of the small blind folds out JJ's and maybe higher though the more I think about it the more I agree they probably aren't out there as they all would have probably bet except maybe AA which is less likely since we hold an A. I do still want to give an extra nudge to fold to those holding hands like 99 or 88 or lower that might think they are good right now as well in case my Ace high is best against the CO.

Actually, I think a lot of my proclivity to raise here is to induce the T to announce itself. Not sure if that is a valid reason or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's very to little chance that we're winning this hand unimproved. In that case, I don't want hands like 88 or 77 to fold so that I can get some more overlay when I do hit an out.

[SomethingClever]

Betting the turn doesn't accomplish much. I'd put your chances of taking down the pot right there at about 1%.

I play 6-max, so I'm probably too LAG minded, but here's my line.

Preflop: 3-bet.
Flop: check/call.
Turn: check/call.
River: I like betting out.. and I probably go ahead and spew a 3-bet out there too.

[ClaytonN]

3-bet preflop
Check turn
Bet/call river