HU with position and flushdraw

[Nick Royale]

From memory, no reads. I think this hand is pretty interesting on every street.

Crypto 1/2 10-handed

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG limps, folded to Hero who raises, folded
BB who calls, UTG calls.

Flop: Q x x (2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs)
2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets...
Everybody likes it?

Rest of the hand will follow...

[btspider]

what's your turn plan when you make this 3-bet?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
what's your turn plan when you make this 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have included the turn in the main post. But my reasoning was I'm likely to have 12-15 outs with an equity between 45 and 50%. 3-betting can't be that bad and will often give me a free look at the river (if I want it). He could check/raise me with any piece of the board as well as a small PP. I even believe this 3-bet has folding equity.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's your turn plan when you make this 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have included the turn in the main post. But my reasoning was I'm likely to have 12-15 outs with an equity between 45 and 50%. 3-betting can't be that bad and will often give me a free look at the river (if I want it). He could check/raise me with any piece of the board as well as a small PP. I even believe this 3-bet has folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you bet the turn, in which case you have to call a check raise, which blows.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's your turn plan when you make this 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have included the turn in the main post. But my reasoning was I'm likely to have 12-15 outs with an equity between 45 and 50%. 3-betting can't be that bad and will often give me a free look at the river (if I want it). He could check/raise me with any piece of the board as well as a small PP. I even believe this 3-bet has folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely don't include the turn action. a flop cap tells us more than we should know for instance.

i just think you should have a plan for the turn in mind when you 3-bet here and share it with us /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ditto what miles said. your folding equity comes from a continuation bet.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Only if you bet the turn, in which case you have to call a check raise, which blows.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Sometimes I will get folds to the flop 3-bet. A low PP doesn't have odds to draw. I actually folded to a flop 3-bet HU myself today holding a PP. I agree it won't happen that frequently though.

[@bsolute_luck]

edited as bt and miles already have responded while i was posting..i think i'll just listen in on this conversation and wait 'til turn /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only if you bet the turn, in which case you have to call a check raise, which blows.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Sometimes I will get folds to the flop 3-bet. A low PP doesn't have odds to draw. I actually folded to a flop 3-bet HU myself today holding a PP. I agree it won't happen that frequently though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against an average player, they will call your 3-bet with whatever they check raised with and check the turn. If you check it through, they are either betting or check calling the river if they paired on the flop. You're only folding a bluff.

Admittedly, sometimes they should fold to 3-bets here, but they don't.

edit: Example: I would check raise you on this flop with 77/88/whatever and I would call your 3-bet to see if you checked the turn behind. Then I'd check call the river unless it were an A/K.

[Nick Royale]

From memory, no reads. I think this hand is pretty interesting on every street.

Crypto 1/2 10-handed

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG limps, folded to Hero who raises, folded
BB who calls, UTG calls.

Flop: Q x x (2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs)
2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.
Everybody likes it?

Turn: (Q x x) x (2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs, no reasonable straight draws)
BB checks, Hero bets...
Pot: 6BB

The flop c/r isn't showing very much strength IMO. As said It could mean any PP over piece of the board. I'm pretty sure about taking this pot more than 17% (well, in reality it will have to take the pot a little more than 17% since I'm not losing the pot by checking I can still make my draw) of the time so I bet. Thoughts?

[milesdyson]

I take it he called the flop 3-bet.

I wouldn't bet the turn unless I knew this guy could fold. You said you have no reads, so I'd say his most likely hand is a pair of queens, which he is going to call down with.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only if you bet the turn, in which case you have to call a check raise, which blows.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Sometimes I will get folds to the flop 3-bet. A low PP doesn't have odds to draw. I actually folded to a flop 3-bet HU myself today holding a PP. I agree it won't happen that frequently though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against an average player, they will call your 3-bet with whatever they check raised with and check the turn. If you check it through, they are either betting or check calling the river if they paired on the flop. You're only folding a bluff.

Admittedly, sometimes they should fold to 3-bets here, but they don't.

edit: Example: I would check raise you on this flop with 77/88/whatever and I would call your 3-bet to see if you checked the turn behind. Then I'd check call the river unless it were an A/K.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see your point. I don't mind folding a bluff though, since they'll have 4-6 outs against me and I believe some players will try to get fancy with a 55-ish hand here but fold to my 3-bet. They will rarely suspect I'm looking for a free card. I didn't look for a free card here though, check the turn (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2440886&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)!

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I take it he called the flop 3-bet.

I wouldn't bet the turn unless I knew this guy could fold. You said you have no reads, so I'd say his most likely hand is a pair of queens, which he is going to call down with.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought you had 3-bet the flop to take the free turn card?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I take it he called the flop 3-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yup.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't bet the turn unless I knew this guy could fold. You said you have no reads, so I'd say his most likely hand is a pair of queens, which he is going to call down with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen far too many players getting fancy with middle pair and like to assume he's holding a queen, even without a read.

On the contrary, my hand has o shwown value unless I improve so I can see the point of checking.

[Marquis]

My standard here is to 3-bet the flop and take the free card.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
My standard here is to 3-bet the flop and take the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that is standard, but with a relatively large pot I wanted to argue for betting. I believe my folding equity is pretty good here so I definately see it as a viable option, even though default play probably should be to check the turn and fold the river UI.