Way ahead / Way behind

[Supern]

1. What are the guidelines when to apply WA/WB?
Just to be sure: WA/WB is check-call/check-call/bet?

2. Does it apply if you are in last position postflop?

[2+2 Junkie]

The line on #1 is when you are heads up and first to act. For #2, I believe you would just call all the way down.

[MrWookie47]

1. You are HU.
1a. You our out of position.
2. If you are ahead, your opponent has < 4 outs against you. If you are behind, you have < 4 outs.
3. There are relatively equal probabilities of you being both WA and WB. If you're just WA, you should be looking to check/raise, and if you're just WB, just fold.

If you're in position, you can call-call-raise, call-call-call, call-raise-bet, or take your pick depending on how likely you are to be ahead.

Edited to specify OOP.

[Supern]

Can you please specify some typical situations when this apply?
For example QQ when 3-bet and no A or K on the flop.

[MrWookie47]

The classic is you open raise in the CO w/ Ad7d. A Button with typical preflop standards 3bets, you call. Flop comes A92 rainbow, no diamonds. You are now way ahead of KK-TT, and way behind AA, AK, AQ, and 99.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you please specify some typical situations when this apply?
For example QQ when 3-bet and no A or K on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

WA/WB means that whoever is losing typically has 0-3 outs. Let's say you raise UTG with AJo and get 3-betted. Flop comes out A62 rainbow. If you're ahead (say against KK or QQ) then your opponent only has 2 outs against you. If you're behind (say against AK or AQs), you only have 3 outs. Usually I find I use the WA/WB line mostly when the pre-flop action has been able to narrow Villain's holdings to a smaller range.

[Supern]

Does WA/WB only apply headsup?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Does WA/WB only apply headsup?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[Supern]

So you say basically that when it's 3-bet at least you use it?

[Shillx]

There are tons of WA/WB lines dude.

OOP:

a) CC/CC/Bet
b) CC/CC/CC
c) CC/CR/Bet
d) CC/CC/Check-fold

In Position:

a) Call/call/call
b) Call/check/call or Bet/check/call
c) Call/call/raise

Brad

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
d) CC/CC/Check-fold


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Shill,

Can you give an example of this line in use?

Thank yee.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I've seen you explain it before (regarding opponents that will never bet worse hands on the river?) but I am not positive.

[Shillx]

Ok let's say that the villian is a good solid player and he at least views you as a decent player. He doesn't think of you as a tough player because that is where the framework begins to fall apart, anyway...

You raise A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and get 3-bet from MP. All others fold and you call to see a J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flop.

You check/call. Turn is T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

You check/call. The river is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

You should now check and fold against this type of opponent. He will only bet better hands when you check to him. So if he has AK/AQ he will check behind, but will bet TT+. This is also the same player who will fold AK when you bet into him, so value betting your AJ is impossible since all worse hands will fold and all better hands will call or raise.

Brad

[Supern]

Lets say you have QQ and get 3-bet pf. A classic.
The flop is rags. Tenhanded tight game.

Do you cc this flop?
And if an ace or king comes on the turn or the river do you fold then?
Of course im assuming he's typical not LAG.

The Ace is of course the worst possible. How many hands without an ace can QQ beat when you get 3-bet by a typical? Maybe JJ. All others have an Ace in them.
So when the ace comes i suppose a fold is for the best.

And if a King comes it's of course trouble as well. Do typical players 3-bet with AQs? Seems to me that AQs and JJ is the only hands we can beat if a King comes.

3-bet
tight raiser: AA-QQ (maybe JJ), AK, AQs (maybe)
loose raiser: AA-99, AK-AJ, KQ

If you have JJ and get 3-bet it seems to me that we can live with a Queen on the board but an Ace or a King is very bad as well.

Thoughts?

[Supern]

You say that he make continuation on the flop and turn, but since you called both he belives you actually has something and will not waste any more money when he has AK.

If he has AA-TT we are in deep **** and he punish us again.
/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Do you think he would bet TT on the river if he doesnt get a set on the turn?

[McGahee]

This wasn't really a WA/WB situation, but I wanted to see what you think about it anyway.
I played a hand a while back where I had AQ, raised PF and got 3-bet.
Flop is undercards, I check/call.
Turn's a brick, check/call.
I wasn't really thinking WA/WB at the time, but it just so happened I ended up using the patented c/c, c/c, b line as I decided to donkbet a brick on the river and he thought about it for a long time before calling with...AQ.
I came away from that hand thinking villian and I both suck.

[istewart]

Alright, nice.

[Shillx]

The thing that you guys have to understand about WA/WB is that it should only be used against certain types of opponents. So when we raise AQ UTG and get 3-bet by a LAG, we should not go into WA/WB mode since he will payoff with a worse hand too much. The time to take this line is when a TAG reraises you. Since the TAG can get away from worse hands and punish us with better hands, it makes sense to play dumb. But against a typical player who will put money into the pot when he knows that he is beat, you should try to avoid this line.

Brad

In the AQ v AQ hand you posted, I probably would have folded the turn. The river bet in that hand makes little sense because worse hands aren't going to call often and better hands are never going to fold.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you have QQ and get 3-bet pf. A classic.
The flop is rags. Tenhanded tight game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are ahead of most hands that would which would 3-bet, the only exceptions being AA/KK. I would typicall bet this flop but be afraid if an ace comes down on one of the later streets.

[ QUOTE ]
The Ace is of course the worst possible. How many hands without an ace can QQ beat when you get 3-bet by a typical? Maybe JJ. All others have an Ace in them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't throw it away right off the bat here, the ace may have scared your opponent as much as it scared you.

[McGahee]

Yeah, like I said I didn't consciously tell myself "this is WA/WB" I just didn't know what to do there and that's the way it played out.
Lately I've been experimenting w/ donkbetting expensive streets occasionally...if nothing else it's funny when they pause for 40 seconds thinking "WTF is this"? It's better to do that when you have reads though, which I didn't in this case. I do think AK folds there sometimes, not that it makes betting the correct play.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you have QQ and get 3-bet pf. A classic.
The flop is rags. Tenhanded tight game.

[/ QUOTE ]

cap PF.

QQ doesn't always fit the WA/WB mold b/c you have to worry about overcards.

Also WA/WB is generally a HU situation unless you had AA on a TTx rainbow flop or something.