J-T suited flops toppair and flushdraw

2/4 NL Prima everybodys stacksize between 3-500$

recently sat down and during that time haven´t seen anyone do anything out of line

hero´s on bb with j-10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
utg raises $8
button folded
sb calls $6
hero calls $4

Flop 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (24$)

sb bet $44
hero calls $44
utg folded

well sb obviously likes his hand, is it worth raising here?
against a hand like KK i´m on a coinflip and against 88 he has 70-30


turn 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (112$)

sb bet $72
hero calls $72

turn gives me a monsterdraw yet with only 1 card to come
im´about 50-50 still to kk and 70-30 against a set

river 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (256$)
sb checks
hero checks

top2pair and sb shows weakness on a dangerous board, should valuebet this river to make a better hand fold (set)or maybe make some extra $ against an overpair like KK

anyway checked it down to and he shows AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gifand I take it down, thoughts of my play this pot?

[HoldEm_Hero]

raise the flop

push the turn

your welcome.

[Yeti]

I disagree, this looks perfect.

[gomberg]

It is nice to take odds on the turn - but pushing has its merits too especially if you have some folding equity (which you should).

I'm not sure I like the call on the flop. You either have the best draw or the best hand, but it seems like you have the best draw from that overbet. given that, will he pay you off if you hit? If not, this is a clear fold. Even if you hit a ten, you may not be good or he may fold to the scary card. If you hit a J, you're probably good, but not necessarily. If you think you have bluffing equity from a scare card like a 9 or 7, then a call may be justified.

[howzit]

I like it.

Keeps from getting popped back up from a set.

Isn't this hand almost identical to the one Flynn put up?

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
given that, will he pay you off if you hit? If not, this is a clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible advice

[maranello11]

I like pushing the turn as well, to maximize your winnings. I know if you miss you lose your whole stack but there is a chance when you push the turn he is folding AJ. You take the pot down right there. The way you played it looks fine, I would value bet the river since you put him on KK or some one -pair type of hand

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
I know if you miss you lose your whole stack but there is a chance when you push the turn he is folding AJ. You take the pot down right there.

[/ QUOTE ]
or he'll beat you into the pot w/some weird two pair hand or a set. If you want to push the turn, raise the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
The way you played it looks fine, I would value bet the river since you put him on KK or some one -pair type of hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the river would work against an uncreative loose player. (i.e. terrible player)

Betting here is opening the door to big decision if you get popped.

[thabadguy]

I like a call on the flop and a push on turn. You have good folding equity from AJ or KK.

[howzit]

i don't see SB holding KK ever.

[maranello11]

i don't see SB holding KK ever


How do you not, he is playing top pair top kicker very strong. I think you could put him on KK.

"Betting the river would work against an uncreative loose player. (i.e. terrible player)"

"Betting here is opening the door to big decision if you get popped."

Yeah it could be a tough decision, but hero seems to have a good read and if he goes with it he will get some added value on the river.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you not

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally people don't call minraises out of position with KK (unless they are damn bad.).

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you not, he is playing top pair top kicker very strong. I think you could put him on KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah....i don't put SB calling an UTG min-raise w/KK preflop.

[maranello11]

ok thats fine but the question is should he check the river. I feel with what he said in his post and his read that a value bet would be fine

[thabadguy]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see SB holding KK ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont either, but the OP mentioned KK in his post, hence i mentioned it.

[creedofhubris]

Betting the river is a conceivable play.

But your line is fine too.

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't see SB holding KK ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont either, but the OP mentioned KK in his post, hence i mentioned it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't think you would.

[psuasskicker]

I think the line to go with is dependent on what you want to accomplish. If you want to take a shot to win a massive pot with the goal of winning the pot in general, I'd raise a large amount on the flop. SB already overbet the pot. That tells me he's either drawing, or on something where he wants to define his hand very quickly.

If you want to fire at the pot, I'd make the bet $200 here. You're committed at that point with great odds and a great hand, so you don't care if there's an all in. This shuts out the UTG raiser unless he flopped a set of Jacks. Maybe he would overplay an overpair, but a bet and raise to $200 on a pot that started out at $24 should be enough to get him off anything but a monster hand.

I also don't mind playing this passively on the flop and turn. On the flop you want UTG in there with you if you can get it (and I'd think strongly about moving all in if UTG raises here). That makes your odds fantastic. But once he folds, I like calling the turn better than raising. Unless SB is on a huge hand he's not going to like anything that can hit the river. He might bet again if he two-pairs up, but most times he'll just check it to you, and you can check down with no improvement or bet if you hit.

I think once that river falls you have to value bet. There are just too many hands that you can beat that he'd call with. You certainly don't want to overbet here. You don't want to lose too much cause he won't call an overly large bet unless you're beat. But with $250 in the pot, I think this is an excellent spot to lay $75 or $100 out there and get called by someone getting 3.5 to 1 or better.

Betting here is opening the door to big decision if you get popped.

HERO has top two which is very strong on this board, and villain's not going to check raise him unless he has a monster straight. I don't think villain can check a Q to HERO here cause he'd be more worried HERO would check behind him without paying him off. And he can't check raise HERO with a set cause there's too high a chance HERO is on a hand like QJ or something that beats villain with a one card straight on the board.

I think a value bet is a must here, and if you get raised you just have to lay it down barring a VERY small raise that gives you odds too attractive to fold.

- C -

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a call on the flop and a push on turn. You have good folding equity from AJ or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

my example with KK was just to illustrate odds as it doesnt really matter what hand he has, am about a coinflip against any range (2pair,AK /images/graemlins/diamond.gifTpTk and Op) except set. i didnt really put him on KK but in all haste I wrote that to illustrate. thanks for replies

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]

given that, will he pay you off if you hit? If not, this is a clear fold.



This is horrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really saying to fold - it was just to illustrate a point. If you have a read that against a villain where you are AT BEST a coinflip, and maybe worse, what's wrong with a fold? I'm just playing devil's advocate here... In some situations against certain opponents, I think it's a clear "overplay semi strong draw hand" that gets a lot of players in trouble. Granted in this situation, I'm calling flop and pushing any turn scare card.