lost w/TT in 6max

[tiltaholic]

Misplayed on every street?
MP is a donator.
CO is a tight aggressive 2+2er.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, MP folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[SCfuji]

that turn card blows nuts. i think i turn into a fluffy little passive fish and check call down especially after a pf raiser calls my flop bet and a pf 3-better overcalls my flop bet after i cap the flop.

the way you played it i still showdown my hand. but dont listen to me, im an atm.

[McGahee]

I think it's fine. The range of hands a TAG is 3-betting with PF in this spot is pretty wide. You're behind after the turn raise, but there's too many draws to drop your hand there. I'm tempted to say a check/call on the turn would've been better, but that might be results-oriented thinking; as you probably have some fold equity vs. a thinking opponenet. Being OOP sucks.

[MrWookie47]

I think I might just fold preflop. There aren't very many preflop 2+2 3-betting hands I'm enthusiastic about being up against, especially when I'm going to be OOP the whole time.

As you played it, I think you did well. There aren't many hands that a 2+2er will 3bet preflop that you're ahead of on the river, but you have to call that turn. If he's jerking your chain with AQ or something, he's got some serious stones.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I might just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

In 6-max? I hope you are joking...

Edit: I guess this is ok.... Tough laydown though... ( initially missed the fact that it was bet&amp;raised by 2 different people)

[tiltaholic]

the main reason i capped pf is that the 3-bet by 2+2 villian could be a relatively wider range since he could be isolation 3-betting MP.

i just couldn't show down...maybe i should have.

maybe the 2+2er in question will see the hand and will let us know what he held. i was anonymous at the time....

[irishpint]

one of the most important things ive learned this summer is regarding turn raises. by calling that raise you're saying you think your hand is good still, and if that's the case you NEED to show it down. If not, save your 2BB. To call the turn raise and fold the river is a terrible mistake- you were drawing to 2 outs, you certainly couldn't expect to hit them/didnt have odds to hit them.

[MrWookie47]

You did see the gutshot and the off chance that hero's frush might be good, right?

[bozlax]

Ok, so this may be weak-tight, I know, buuuut:

If I know that CO is a 2+2 TAG, and I know that he knows that I know (etc) that the other player in the hand is a donator....um....ok, simplify. I know that CO is a 2+2 TAG, so I can narrow his range of preflop 3-betting hands. My hand is on the lower end of that range, with the exception of AKs/AQs. So, when he 3-bets, I know I'm playing for set value and I need to be getting about 7 or 8 to 1 from the pot to see the flop (I'm figuring that I won't pay to see the turn or river if I don't catch the flop, so I'm not using 5 to 1, but it's immaterial anyway since you're not even getting that). So, in the absence of the donator, I throw away TT against a 3-bet from a known TAG with, at most, 2 other people staying in the hand.

So, now we add the donator. The other 2+2er knows he's a donator, too, so his 3-bet might be somewhat loose to get it HU with the ATM. You cap to show that you actually have a strong hand, and 2+2 sees the flop. You bet out and he calls, so I put him on a draw or a PP of broadways, here. The jack completes 2 different draws (diamond flush, king-high straight), plus might give him a set of jacks, or jacks-up or kings and jacks. He might even have slowplayed a set of kings. Once he raises you on the turn, you know it's going to cost you at least two more bets to showdown, to win the 11.5 that are in there, so you're only getting 5.75 to 1 to draw to a 2-outer that might already be dead.

OK, I've made my decision: with the ATM in the hand, I cap PF like you did. When CO stays in to the cap, I try to C/R the flop (I'm not dying if it checks through, since I think there's a pretty good chance I'm already behind). (I don't go to WA/WB call-call-bet since it's shorthanded, and I don't think I could be WA.) I fold to a 3-bet on the flop if my C/R works. Regardless, I fold to the turn raise from CO.

Phew. This was a good one, but I need more coffee, now.

[deception5]

Hero had gutshot and possible flush outs as well, although all of the outs are dirty.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the most important things ive learned this summer is regarding turn raises. by calling that raise you're saying you think your hand is good still, and if that's the case you NEED to show it down. If not, save your 2BB. To call the turn raise and fold the river is a terrible mistake- you were drawing to 2 outs, you certainly couldn't expect to hit them/didnt have odds to hit them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i picked up a billion outs on the turn...
granted they might not all be clean, but a billion is a big number...

[MrWookie47]

I'd only isolation-3-bet against maniacs, not run-of-the-mill donators. Is that what you mean? Was MP some sort of 75/50/3 guy? Or are you describing a 84/1/0.25 type? Against the former, capping might be OK. Against the latter, I'm folding.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one of the most important things ive learned this summer is regarding turn raises. by calling that raise you're saying you think your hand is good still, and if that's the case you NEED to show it down. If not, save your 2BB. To call the turn raise and fold the river is a terrible mistake- you were drawing to 2 outs, you certainly couldn't expect to hit them/didnt have odds to hit them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i picked up a billion outs on the turn...
granted they might not all be clean, but a billion is a big number...

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, by bad. not used to seeing TT as a drawing hand. now i changed my mind, no since throwing it down now since u missed your draws. thanks for correcting me!

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that CO is a 2+2 TAG, so I can narrow his range of preflop 3-betting hands. My hand is on the lower end of that range, with the exception of AKs/AQs. So, when he 3-bets, I know I'm playing for set value and I need to be getting about 7 or 8 to 1 from the pot to see the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the starting hands chart I've seen floating around here, co could be 3-betting with 77+, AT+, KQ, KJs. Hero does not need to be playing this for set value. It's unfortunate a king came down, but hero could realistically have the best hand here.

[SCfuji]

who was it anyways?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the starting hands chart I've seen floating around here, co could be 3-betting with 77+, AT+, KQ, KJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which makes it important to have a read on CO. If Hero's only read on him is that he's a "2+2 TAG" I'm taking the T seriously and putting him on a better hand than 77, IN THE ABSENCE OF THE DONATOR. With the donator in, I don't put him on a better hand until the turn raise, and I try to C/R him on the flop to get some information.

You did read my entire post, right? Or did you just find a part you could argue with and isolate it?

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd only isolation-3-bet against maniacs, not run-of-the-mill donators.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm alone, but I also like to isolate predictable players who play poorly postflop.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
who was it anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]
I PMed him.
His username was recognizably similar to a 2+2 handle...so it might not be him.

and in the spirit of disclosure, the "donator" was playing 32/21/1.9 but the sample size was small. so he may not have been a "donator" after all.....

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
IN THE ABSENCE OF THE DONATOR. With the donator in, I don't put him on a better hand until the turn raise, and I try to C/R him on the flop to get some information.


[/ QUOTE ]

With a donator there are even more hands he could be isolating with... he could 3-bet that range against almost anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
You did read my entire post, right? Or did you just find a part you could argue with and isolate it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How rude. All right, let's go through the rest of your post.

[ QUOTE ]
When CO stays in to the cap

[/ QUOTE ]

How many tags fold to a cap when they 3-bet? This tells you nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
I try to C/R the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
To slow down a worse hand and give more money to a better one?

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a pretty good chance I'm already behind

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is this exactly?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't go to WA/WB call-call-bet since it's shorthanded, and I don't think I could be WA

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it's shorthanded you are MORE likely to be WA.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, I fold to the turn raise from CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Despite the gutshot &amp; flush draw?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
and in the spirit of disclosure, the "donator" was playing 32/21/1.9 but the sample size was small. so he may not have been a "donator" after all.....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty critical information. i read donator as a 50/4 LP type. 21 PFR even over a small sample is at least indicative of raising light.. which affects the homie's 3-betting range as well.

donator, donk, and FishMcChump are not really reads..

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and in the spirit of disclosure, the "donator" was playing 32/21/1.9 but the sample size was small. so he may not have been a "donator" after all.....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty critical information. i read donator as a 50/4 LP type. 21 PFR even over a small sample is at least indicative of raising light.. which affects the homie's 3-betting range as well.

donator, donk, and FishMcChump are not really reads..

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. me too. he was definitely not the typical loose passive.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IN THE ABSENCE OF THE DONATOR. With the donator in, I don't put him on a better hand until the turn raise, and I try to C/R him on the flop to get some information.


[/ QUOTE ]

With a donator there are even more hands he could be isolating with... he could 3-bet that range against almost anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
You did read my entire post, right? Or did you just find a part you could argue with and isolate it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How rude. All right, let's go through the rest of your post.

[ QUOTE ]
When CO stays in to the cap

[/ QUOTE ]

How many tags fold to a cap when they 3-bet? This tells you nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
I try to C/R the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
To slow down a worse hand and give more money to a better one?

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a pretty good chance I'm already behind

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is this exactly?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't go to WA/WB call-call-bet since it's shorthanded, and I don't think I could be WA

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it's shorthanded you are MORE likely to be WA.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, I fold to the turn raise from CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Despite the gutshot &amp; flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's see:

1. When CO calls the cap, I bump up his range of possible hands. It was my point in my OP that with the donator in I expand his range of possible hands. Again, did you read it?

2. Not reading my entire post before you jump on me? I agree, that is rude. Listen, I don't want to get into a war with you, but you took a piece of my OP, took it out of context, and jumped on it with an argument that I had addressed. I can't imagine anybody not having a problem with that. And, in point of fact, that's what you've done again in this post...taken sound, er, post-bites from what I wrote and criticized them in light of information and arguments that I included in my post.

3. See point #1. If the TAG is on a dead-steal or attempt to get an uber-LAG HU, he might fold when capped because he knows the range of hands another TAG would cap. That's all I'm saying.

4. I attempt to C/R the flop to find out just how happy CO is with his hand (as I said in both of my posts). If this is a bad play, feel free to tell me why, but I disagree with your assessment. Betting out gives you no information at all.

5. I think I'm behind because a 3-betting-PF-TAG hasn't slowed down. What makes you think you're ahead?

6. Yes, but shorthanded isn't a panacea for playing against a TAG that's showing strength.

7. Looking at the hand initially, I almost entirely discounted the gutshot as dirty. Since we're playing against a TAG, I don't believe a ten-high flush is going to win it for us (what do you do when a low diamond falls on the river, you bet and the TAG raises you?), so I do entirely discount the flush draw.

[DMBFan23]

one option is calling preflop and C/Ring any non A flop. you can checkraise some K flops as long as they are otherwise unthreatening, IMO.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
1. When CO calls the cap, I bump up his range of possible hands. It was my point in my OP that with the donator in I expand his range of possible hands. Again, did you read it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously and as I explained it is extremely rare that anyone would 3-bet and not call a cap. This does not help you define the strength of the hand you are facing.

[ QUOTE ]
Not reading my entire post before you jump on me? I agree, that is rude.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you in junior high?

[ QUOTE ]
but you took a piece of my OP, took it out of context, and jumped on it with an argument that I had addressed

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the piece that struck me as the most inaccurate and commented on it so that you would think it through some more. If you're not looking to discuss your thoughts then you might not want to post here.

[ QUOTE ]
Listen, I don't want to get into a war with you

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, I'm done here. I'm turning ignore on.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
Misplayed on every street?
MP is a donator.
CO is a tight aggressive 2+2er.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, MP folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm CO in this hand. I had no idea Hero was a 2+2er, and I didn't have much of a read on MP either ; I was kind of on auto-pilot.

I had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif btw. Hello turn /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Dumb flop call on my part?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb flop call on my part?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could've just been a continuation bet from the PFR. I would probably make the same call, planning to raise if bet into on the turn, unless an ace falls.

[MrWookie47]

I don't think so. It's pretty clear that your villain has TT. You missed a raise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Misplayed on every street?
MP is a donator.
CO is a tight aggressive 2+2er.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, MP folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm CO in this hand. I had no idea Hero was a 2+2er, and I didn't have much of a read on MP either ; I was kind of on auto-pilot.

I had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif btw. Hello turn /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Dumb flop call on my part?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno. i wouldn't say dumb.
you were getting 16:1, and if you did hit, you could be pretty certain you'd get paid off - if i had AA, AK, or QQ.

if that turn was a blank, would you have called me down to the river?

sorry i didn't give you a heads up, i was in a pissy mood...

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
if that turn was a blank, would you have called me down to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, hard to say. If damn MP stopped overcalling, it would have been much easier.

[ClaytonN]

grunching:

Given read of CO as a tight 2+2'er, I'm tempted to fold this preflop.

At best you are 50/50 against his range of hands OOP, because I don't see villain 3-betting a hand like 99 from the CO. Maybe it's just me.

If you give credit to villain (the 2+2'er) having a hand, I find it hard not to believe that villain had JJ. Maybe he has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

In spite of this, I like how you played flop. I would be temped to shut down or call down on the turn, though.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]

I had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif btw. Hello turn /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Dumb flop call on my part?

[/ QUOTE ]

I RULE

No, not a dumb flop call