55 UTG +2

[Schmed]

Paradise 2-4

folds to me I have 55 UTG +2, I raise, co calls, button calls, both blinds call.

Flop

A 4 5r

SB bets, bb folds, I raise, co folds, button folds, sb reraises, I cap, sb calls

Turn

8

SB bets, I raise, sb calls

river

10

sb bets, I raise, sb calls

[JoshuaD]

I fold preflop. I don't open-raise low PP's until ~MP3.

I play the rest the same way. Slow playing on the flop is an inviting prospect, but I think in the long run you get more money this way. More often than not, you raise, someone cold calls, and both SB and him call you down.

[jskills]

Some people may fold that 55 preflop. I have trouble with that myself. It's still a bit of a grey area in my game I think.

The rest of the hand plays itself. You flop a set and continue to put in as many bets as possible on every street - so nice hand.

So was it set over set or what?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
So was it set over set or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be so hot. Villian would have saved hero a few bets here.

[27offsooot]

Why do you butcher PF in every one of your posts i've read (unless this table is SH)? Post-flop is standard.

[Schmed]

no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
folds to me I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]

It really is madness. The rest is fine.

[Schmed]

in LL games I find that with so many people who will call you down when you hit your set that the small pairs up front really pay off. The only thing I struggle with is raising them. Should I limp or raise? And ya know...rather be the bettor than the caller.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif I find it more online than live as it seems in live games people just aren't as aggressive. Like the guy in this hand I have to think he was pumping 2 pr or something. It had to be better than just something like AK. Having said that I do find that online 2-4 is about as tough as any limit I play live.

I won the hand with my set. I figured the guy for 2 pr or something maybe AK but I doubt it.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with just calling here PF.

[felix83]

My thinking about playing these early is that you either want to try to take down the pot with aggression, in which case you raise, or you want to try to hit a set and maximize profit, in which case you can limp and get some more callers behind. But if you limp you need to be getting about 8 to 1 (I think) PF to ensure you profit long term from limping with these, so you need to know that there will be other callers. That's why I wouldn't limp with these early.

Sorry just woke up, not sure if this is at all clear. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with just calling here PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping here is tough. So often you will get raised an wind up heads up out of position with a small pair. You will get an overcard on the flop and usually wont hit the 5. Out of position with a small pair sucks.

55 plays best when you flop a 5 on a few suckers. No suckers available in this hand. Wait until you can limp behind 2 or 3 in late position. I have been tossing 66 and lower unless we are limping alot with no preflop raising. In an aggressive game the only time I am open raising is from the CO. This is a grey aspect of my games also.....

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking about playing these early is that you either want to try to take down the pot with aggression, in which case you raise, or you want to try to hit a set and maximize profit, in which case you can limp and get some more callers behind. But if you limp you need to be getting about 8 to 1 (I think) PF to ensure you profit long term from limping with these, so you need to know that there will be other callers. That's why I wouldn't limp with these early.

Sorry just woke up, not sure if this is at all clear. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Felix:

If you're in a tight game and your not going to get limpers behind you, then fold this. If you're playing at party and find yourself in a game where you have to fold this EP, find a new game (unless you're intentionally trying to play against tougher opponents). If you're being aggressive with small pps in EP, I guarentee you you're losing money with these hands.

[Schmed]

that was always my thinking too. You need 8-1 to hit your set or at least 5 callers to get the correct implied odds. With out either pf you need to raise to take it down or fold.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I play any pp UTG/ UTG+1 at a 3/6 full table. UTG+2 is about my cut-off where i stop open-limping if the table is tight. There is nothing wrong with open-limping 55 UTG+2 if the table is LP, but i don't tend to raise below 77 here ever. Especially given that u said that they would pay u off if u hit ur set, meaning they are LP, i think it's best to just limp here.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I play any pp UTG/ UTG+1 at a 3/6 full table. UTG+2 is about my cut-off where i stop open-limping if the table is tight. There is nothing wrong with open-limping 55 UTG+2 if the table is LP, but i don't tend to raise below 77 here ever. Especially given that u said that they would pay u off if u hit ur set, meaning they are LP, i think it's best to just limp here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a Loose/Aggressive with this hand over Loose/Passive everytime.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take a Loose/Aggressive with this hand over Loose/Passive everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with 27offsuit. Against a LAG your reverse implied odds are pretty crappy, against LPP's you can pick and choose your flops without getting too involved preflop, and have good odds doing it.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no it was a full table.

Do you think this was "butchered" because of the raise? Do you advocate folding small pairs preflop from ep's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I play any pp UTG/ UTG+1 at a 3/6 full table. UTG+2 is about my cut-off where i stop open-limping if the table is tight. There is nothing wrong with open-limping 55 UTG+2 if the table is LP, but i don't tend to raise below 77 here ever. Especially given that u said that they would pay u off if u hit ur set, meaning they are LP, i think it's best to just limp here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a Loose/Aggressive with this hand over Loose/Passive everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really feel like paying too many bets PF when I'm limping. I get what you're saying though. Your post-flop expectation is much higher at a LAG-fest if u hit. Also, u can play 55 UI more aggressively against a couple of LAGs. Still, with 66 and below, i tend to play fit or fold in MW pots. Of course, it depends though.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[damaniac]

I don't hate the preflop as much as everyone else. Lately I've been open-raising small pairs (well, down to sixes generally) from MP1 or thereabouts, as well as little suited broadways. However, this is usually when the table is playing tight, so I feel there is a reasonable chance of winning the blinds, or getting it heads up, esp with a blind, where I can often take it down with a flop bet when my opponent misses. This is more table and opponent dependent though, and I think raising here against a looser table is just spewing.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aggregate group, we have been sliding towards this the last couple of months.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aggregate group, we have been sliding towards this the last couple of months.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sliding.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aggregate group, we have been sliding towards this the last couple of months.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sliding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

77 is alot higher than 55. 77 is the bottom line here, and I'm only raising it here with reads or with a short table.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]


I have 55 UTG +2, I raise


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm in love.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



As an aggregate group, we have been sliding towards this the last couple of months.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm not sliding.


[/ QUOTE ]
Me neither. I just can't help the way I feel. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

77 is alot higher than 55. 77 is the bottom line here, and I'm only raising it here with reads or with a short table.

[/ QUOTE ]

What reads do you want to see to give you a situation to raise 77 on a full table?

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]

I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

77 is much better than 55.

[chief444]

Not real loose. If unusually tight then I actually would raise 55. But it's certainly a limping hand for me under normal conditions.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
What reads do you want to see to give you a situation to raise 77 on a full table?

[/ QUOTE ]

You read my mind (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2440294&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1) QTip. I just don't wanna see alot of loosies behind me. Going 5 way OOP with 77 doesn't sound very inviting.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Going 5 way OOP with 77 doesn't sound very inviting.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's kosher with me, I can fit or fold pretty profitably there. the reason it sucks is when it goes CO raises, folded around to you , you call, flop Kxx or something

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going 5 way OOP with 77 doesn't sound very inviting.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's kosher with me, I can fit or fold pretty profitably there. the reason it sucks is when it goes CO raises, folded around to you , you call, flop Kxx or something

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. I alway feel like I need to play those J63 flops with 77, and the only reason it's profitable is because I built a large pot preflop.


You mean CO 3-bets? I don't mind that so much. Especially if I have some sort of read on him (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2440294&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1). /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

77 is alot higher than 55. 77 is the bottom line here, and I'm only raising it here with reads or with a short table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand full well that 77 is a better hand, I even understand why.

My obsevation is that not too long ago if you posted a 77 UTG-UTG+2 raise, you probably would have been flamed.

I understand the argument for doing so. But, I will say this and I really don't care if I get flamed (well I do, but this is actually how I feel):

For some people NateThaGreat's too tight post and the ensuing quest for higher VPIP and more aggression, was the worst thing to happen to them in the short-run.

Peoples open raising standrds have gone too far the opposite way. I also believe the the isolation raise is being used in situations where a brief analysis would probably indicate that isolation is unlikely.

I think all these concepts are well and good in the proper situation, but I think much like a child with a new toy, the tendency is to overuse them.

[chief444]

I don't know flair...you have a good point and I agree certainly that people need to be selective with the situations. But IMO for full 3/6 or so games a 12%pfr is much better than an 8%pfr and I'd bet most here are closer to 8%. I think at times the benefits of a raise preflop especially in late position are underrated. However, I agree that whatever percentage is "optimal" needs to be at the right times in the right situations.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would wager that if his hand had been 77 instead of 55, people would not bat an eyelash at the pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

77 is alot higher than 55. 77 is the bottom line here, and I'm only raising it here with reads or with a short table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand full well that 77 is a better hand, I even understand why.

My obsevation is that not too long ago if you posted a 77 UTG-UTG+2 raise, you probably would have been flamed.

I understand the argument for doing so. But, I will say this and I really don't care if I get flamed (well I do, but this is actually how I feel):

For some people NateThaGreat's too tight post and the ensuing quest for higher VPIP and more aggression, was the worst thing to happen to them in the short-run.

Peoples open raising standrds have gone too far the opposite way. I also believe the the isolation raise is being used in situations where a brief analysis would probably indicate that isolation is unlikely.

I think all these concepts are well and good in the proper situation, but I think much like a child with a new toy, the tendency is to overuse them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still limping 77 EP in 95+% of the games I'm in, and I don't see that changing.

At any rate, I like what you had to say here. Here's what I think it boils down to:

Some players are creating a more loose/aggressive starting hand chart.

Hey...I 3 bet 66 in CO after MP3 raised. Great, MP3 is 24/4 and the blinds are both 53 VPIPs...congrats you just probably threw away 3 sbs and maybe more before it's over.

There are circumstances that need to be met in order to make these plays profitable. Until you can recognize those what those situations are and recognize that you're in that siutations when you're playing, stick with the standard chart.

[Schmed]

I love you too man..... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
But IMO for full 3/6 or so games a 12%pfr is much better than an 8%pfr and I'd bet most here are closer to 8%.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. But I think some people are getting their 12% in the wrong places (In one of the Poker Essays books mason has an article called "15%", it is not specifically about PFR, but about the number of hands that you play...QTIP can you help out here?). Not borderline pushing a small margin places, but bad places.

I think it goes unoticed, because few people give you reads for the (7) people left to act behind them when they raise light from UTG2 to isolate a player they percieve as weak.

EDIT: Who they percieve as weak is another story altogether. Often times when you think you are isoalting a 32% VPIP limper in EP, you stand a pretty good chance of isolating a player who won't fold and has a better hand. (IE some of these players who are loose but not hugely loose are often position aware.)

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
(In one of the Poker Essays books mason has an article called "15%", it is not specifically about PFR, but about the number of hands that you play...QTIP can you help out here?).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in PE 2. It's not about the % you play, but how you play the % you play is the jist of the essay.

[QTip]

page 97

[chief444]

Agreed.

On a related side note, I've spoken with a couple of live pro's who swear they'll raise any two if they feel it may get heads up with a poor opponent. Ironically, they were both playing with someone elses stake.

[Jonathan]

I like the way you played it....Preflop its OK to limp,
while raising once in a while so opponents dont get an easy read
on you. Someone said he tends to fold 55 preflop. That might be correct
in a game with aggressive players, but for most of the low stakes
games I've been in, where you can expect to outplay your opponents post flop, folding 55 is -EV.

Also, I like the active raising post flop. This is not the
place to slow play it.

Well played!

Suerte,
Jonathan

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]

Some players are creating a more loose/aggressive starting hand chart.


[/ QUOTE ]

One last thought, then I will let this die.

Is it good practice to advise someone who uses a chart, to loosen up pre-flop? In that I mean to say, that someone who is using a chart, has not yet gained a functional understanding of PF concepts, so loosening up could get them in a lot of trouble.

EDit: Changed period to question mark...thank you QTIP

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Some players are creating a more loose/aggressive starting hand chart.


[/ QUOTE ]

One last thought, then I will let this die.

Is it good practice to advise someone who uses a chart, to loosen up pre-flop. In that I mean to say, that someone who is using a chart, has not yet gained a functional understanding of PF concepts, so loosening up could get them in a lot of trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean it is not a good practice to advise someone who uses a chart....

[CallMeIshmael]

The only time I am raising 55 preflop there, is if I am not posting another blind, because the table is too tight /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But, I also dont think the raise is all that bad.

Other than that, I like it.


Also, FWIW, I feel his comments in this thread are a pretty clear indicator of why Chief is about the last SS regular I want at my table.

EDIT: of the people who are playing at the low stakes... clearly, Matt vs Nate is a no brainer /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[QTip]

I play with Matt all the time. He's a fish.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I play with Matt all the time. He's a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the land of the blind, the man with one Q-Tip is king.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise here may not be a good play 100% of the time, but it's hardly a crime against humanity.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 55 UTG +2, I raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in love. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Stop it Matt! You're not raising this here! I know that!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise here may not be a good play 100% of the time, but it's hardly a crime against humanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

A crime against humanity, no. However, in the SS online games, I can't think of a reason to do it. And, as you've alluded to, it should be far from a standard play as some in this thread have implied.

If the games tight, and you'll believe it will fold around, find a new game.

If your opponents are so good that you need to switch it up, find a new game.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play with Matt all the time. He's a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the land of the blind, the man with one Q-Tip is king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm totally clueless.

It's a shame how many families are torn apart by wild dogs.....am I on track?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play with Matt all the time. He's a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the land of the blind, the man with one Q-Tip is king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm totally clueless.

It's a shame how many families are torn apart by wild dogs.....am I on track?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!

I had no idea how to respond... but I wanted to respond.

Ergo, I went with the most random thing I could think of /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play with Matt all the time. He's a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the land of the blind, the man with one Q-Tip is king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm totally clueless.

It's a shame how many families are torn apart by wild dogs.....am I on track?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!

I had no idea how to respond... but I wanted to respond.

Ergo, I went with the most random thing I could think of /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant! I was on track then.