Fear the four of a kind? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Fear the four of a kind?

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 05:00 AM

Villian (raiser) is semi-laggy. The turn raise made me think he had an Ace, but what do I do when the river brings another Ace?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG raises, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

brazilio

05-20-2005, 05:05 AM

Not raising that river makes me die inside

ArturiusX

05-20-2005, 05:06 AM

Never.

jason_t

05-20-2005, 05:08 AM

You should have won more from this pot. And if you lost the pot, you should have thrown some value raises in there.

Nick C

05-20-2005, 05:15 AM

One thing to recognize is that the river card could not have hurt you but may have helped you. (You did just pull ahead of 77 and 44, for instance.)

That said, MP2's river bet is kind of annoying. I guess he just made a boat or something.

For his part, UTG is apparently in love with the checkraise. I'd call him down, and, yeah, I would kind of expect to see the fourth ace. (There are all sorts of hand combinations that contain that last ace but only three 44's and three 77's.) But since he's a semi-LAG, who knows? He could just have something like pocket two's.

brazilio

05-20-2005, 05:16 AM

Your hand should have looked like this.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 05:21 AM

Hmm... many mixed opinions. I think this is very read-dependent. Against most people, I would have raised the river. But I was almost sure by the pre-bet pauses of the villian and the betting pattern that he had the Ace. I was indeed right, so I would have lost more from this pot jason_t. I think this hand illustrates that you can indeed fear the four of a kind and be right, because I never have feared it like I did until this hand - and my read turned out to be right.

brazilio

05-20-2005, 05:24 AM

The only mixed opinion is yours because you know the results.

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 05:27 AM

Compare the opinion of Nick C with the other posters. Totally different opinions - Nick C acknowledges the possible quads, the others don't. There's your mixed opinions.

Nick C

05-20-2005, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only mixed opinion is yours because you know the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's referring to my post. I wasn't as confident that Hero was ahead on the river as you and Jason were.

I'm assuming the loose Villain will play just about any ace. That makes for a lot of hand combinations that make quads.

brazilio

05-20-2005, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Compare the opinion of Nick C with the other posters. Totally different opinions - Nick C acknowledges the possible quads, the others don't. There's your mixed opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't understand that a value bet/raise doesn't have to be a 100% winning bet, you're a pisspoor player. I acknowledge the possibility and then disregard it as being less than what's required for a value raise. As for your reads, you say he's semi-laggish and I'd expect exactly the same from a mid pocket or the flopped twopair.

Shillx

05-20-2005, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Compare the opinion of Nick C with the other posters. Totally different opinions - Nick C acknowledges the possible quads, the others don't. There's your mixed opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't understand that a value bet/raise doesn't have to be a 100% winning bet, you're a pisspoor player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy didn't fear the quads and paid the price. His K7o was no match in this hand...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (12.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

Edit - I don't really see how the hero could have made much more with his JJ. I can see how he could have lost an assload more. His play seems sensible here though. Raising the river might also be a viable play but not fearing the quads is silly imo.

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 05:34 AM

If I had to give it a percentage, then I was 95% sure that the villian had an Ace. Considering those read-influenced odds as opposed to playing completely textbook, I went for the check-call line.

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 05:39 AM

nh. He also didn't consider AA, KK or JJ either eh?

brazilio

05-20-2005, 05:39 AM

Anybody who 3-bets that river deserves to lose

grjr

05-20-2005, 06:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody who 3-bets that river deserves to lose

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen lots of hands like that at Tigergaming. Many times with 3 people capping the turn and river. I always type in "Are there six 8's in this deck?" but nobody seems to find it funny. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Nick Royale

05-20-2005, 07:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising that river makes me die inside

[/ QUOTE ]
I think raising the river would be wrong.

chief444

05-20-2005, 07:48 AM

I think it's OK.

jskills

05-20-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody who 3-bets that river deserves to lose

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen lots of hands like that at Tigergaming. Many times with 3 people capping the turn and river. I always type in "Are there six 8's in this deck?" but nobody seems to find it funny. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's funny. I always like to type "so I guess we all have aces" when it's capped preflop. No one seems to think that is funny either for some reason ...

Folding Pete

05-20-2005, 10:51 AM

From last week villain has stats of 70.97/16.93/0.86

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 has 2h 7h (four of a kind, twos).
Hero has 8d 8s (full house, eights full of twos).
Outcome: MP1 wins 19.75 BB.

Oh Bugger!

I just knew he was going to show me some crappy 2 but did it have to be so crappy?

SeaEagle

05-20-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to give it a percentage, then I was 95% sure that the villian had an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were 95% sure you were losing, then you didn't have the pot odds to call the first bet on the river...

I can't really put villian on an A here very often. After c/ring the turn only an idiot would check the river when the case A falls. I think you have MP beat most of the time and I think you're good enough for a raise to be worth a shot.

If MP checks this river like he should, do you check or bet?

Did you think villian was going for a 2nd c/r? Had you seen villian do this double c/r thing before? In general, I guess I would like to hear your thoughts on why you thought villians check on the river meant he had quads.

DMBFan23

05-20-2005, 02:20 PM

using the "fear" of quads to not raise is fine, as you will sometimes collect overcalls from hands that don't buy it either.

trying to minimize losses is not in and of itself usually the best strategy, but when combined with a line that allows you to win the most when ahead, it becomes useful.

and I think your 95% estimation is pretty results oriented, especially with all the "OMG he checkraised the river with 62o HAHAH LOL!!!oneone!!!eleven!!!!" posts I see here.

bakku

05-20-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should have won more from this pot. And if you lost the pot, you should have thrown some value raises in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I would have played this hand the exact same way unless I was going to call/3-bet the river and fold to a cap, which I wouldn't want to do.

Stellastarr

05-20-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From last week villain has stats of 70.97/16.93/0.86

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 has 2h 7h (four of a kind, twos).
Hero has 8d 8s (full house, eights full of twos).
Outcome: MP1 wins 19.75 BB.

Oh Bugger!

I just knew he was going to show me some crappy 2 but did it have to be so crappy?


[/ QUOTE ]

72s? I hope hes on your buddy list.

Cumulonimbus

05-20-2005, 10:56 PM

Yeah, at the time I felt like I should fold. I just didn't.