Fold to callstation when bomb card turns?

[imported_AAcheckraise]

I am usually clueless when it comes to this situation, only because this villian is:

51.37/3.24/1.02

He is seeminly bad, and has not made any horrible plays before this...

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: AAcheckraise is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">AAcheckraise raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">AAcheckraise raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, AAcheckraise calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, AAcheckraise calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has As 5s (flush, ace high).
AAcheckraise has Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 9.25 BB. </font>

[aK13]

No.

[@bsolute_luck]

does he bet flush draws? does he c/r a made hand?

i'd probably fold the turn or the river since your read seems to say "he doesn't bluff".

[Yako]

I think what you have to do in this situation is raise the turn, and fold to any more aggression from your opponent. A lot of times, someone betting out like that when the flush hits on the turn is bluffing, and you have to make them pay. However, if you get reraised, it's safe to say you're beat, and you can fold. Same thing if op calls the turn and c/r's the river.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you have to do in this situation is raise the turn, and fold to any more aggression from your opponent. A lot of times, someone betting out like that when the flush hits on the turn is bluffing, and you have to make them pay. However, if you get reraised, it's safe to say you're beat, and you can fold. Same thing if op calls the turn and c/r's the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather take that bet and use it for a showdown. If we have him beat, he's going to fold. If he's destroying us, we're throwing away money.

[TripleH68]

Okay so players like this limp suited cards UTG all the time, but how can you put UTG on a flush? Way too narrow especially when villain may hold an OESD and wants to put the pressure on overcards.

I couldn't fold here HU on the turn.

In the future don't include the results in posts like this. Stop the action at some point.

[Yako]

If he has the flush, he either reraises us right there, and we fold, which costs the same amount as showing down. If he calls and then c/r's, that costs us an extra bb. If he's bluffing, he might fold, unless he's bluffing with 1 spade in his hand, in which case he'll call, and we gain back that 1 BB right there. Also, he might have a pair and be representing the flush, in which case, being a typical 5/1 player, he might call the raise and a bet on the river.

Honestly, I can see it go both ways, depending on reads. Against a maniac, I'd 3-bet. Against someone who has like .5 AF, I'd call down.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you have to do in this situation is raise the turn, and fold to any more aggression from your opponent. A lot of times, someone betting out like that when the flush hits on the turn is bluffing, and you have to make them pay. However, if you get reraised, it's safe to say you're beat, and you can fold. Same thing if op calls the turn and c/r's the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dumb.

[imported_AAcheckraise]

Sigh... I understand you can poke him on the turn and if he pushed like he did probably fold (a little like by me) With the 3 card straight and 3 card flush, I think its likely enough to assume that his call on the flop gave him OESD or a 4-flush...

after this hand I NOTICED A TELL:

- before his betting turn ran clock to 5 seconds and bet! is this usual for nuts??

Not to mention. heads up with a flat call on flop could well be a slow play of a set (very unlikely though)


so... assuming you put him on TPTK you bet turn or check to trap ???

[ArturiusX]

Villians play is not horrible. I play it the same way.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
before his betting turn ran clock to 5 seconds and bet! is this usual for nuts??

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not uncommon for someone who's really smart and clever to "represent" that their hand isn't strong by making everyone wait for them.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
Villians play is not horrible. I play it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd c/r the turn as Villain if I had a read on Hero as the 2+2 type.

[no1super2001]

grunching...

First, don't post the results. Even though they are in white, some may look and you don't get the best analysis.

Your hand is vulnerable, either protect it on the turn or muck it. If he is truly a calling station, why is he leading out betting? I am not sure his aggression numbers support the moniker. Let this go on the turn.

[imported_AAcheckraise]

[ QUOTE ]
grunching...

First, don't post the results. Even though they are in white, some may look and you don't get the best analysis.

Your hand is vulnerable, either protect it on the turn or muck it. If he is truly a calling station, why is he leading out betting? I am not sure his aggression numbers support the moniker. Let this go on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I will learn to release the over pair, just takes a little bit of control.

[Shillx]

All 3 options have merit here imo. Folding looks okay though we are getting a good price to calldown. We only have to win a little over 20% of the time to make it correct.

Raising might also be okay in this spot. When the you have a choice between raising and checking behind and calling down, you should consider the factors...

a) How often will the villian bet the river with the worst hand

b) How often will he stop and go on the river

If (a) is 100%, you should just call since the villian will always bluff the river for you. If the villian will tend to give up on 5th street, then you should raise the turn to make him pay that extra bet when he is on the draw. Since the typical player will make it 3-bets with a flush, you get the maximum EV by taking this line against someone who will check/fold a hand like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the river when they miss.

As (b) goes up, you should also tend to calldown. Against good players, I will often times stop and go with good hands on these kinds of boards since a turn raise often represents a hand that is both looking for a showdown and folding to 3-bet. By just calling the raise and then betting the river, you leave your opponent wondering if you are going for another desperation bluff. While he should fold if a good player is making this play, a bad player will sometimes do this kinda thing with a hand that doesn't seem to warrent it (like top pair). So when they make this type of play, they get you to put in 3 BB when you almost always have the worst hand. But since it is just one more bet in a big pot when the villian has played his hand oddly, you often call that last bet when you have no chance of winning.

Brad

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before his betting turn ran clock to 5 seconds and bet! is this usual for nuts??

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not uncommon for someone who's really smart and clever to "represent" that their hand isn't strong by making everyone wait for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't use the time someone takes to make a bet to mean anything because it really doesn't. He could me multitabling or surfing the net or something, and just have spaced for a few seconds. He could have picked up the phone, or ran to answer the door. Who knows, you can't see the person, you don't know what kind of action he is making to take time whether it is deliberate or not.

[JackThree]

[ QUOTE ]
either protect it on the turn or muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think giving villian ~7-1 on that board is going to *protect* you from any possible draws he could have?

I say call the turn and fold the river. On the turn he could have a lot of hands that are either very strong draws against you or two pairs that you have outs against. On the river pretty much every possible hand he could have beats you.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Villians play is not horrible. I play it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

you wouldn't check-raise this turn?

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villians play is not horrible. I play it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

you wouldn't check-raise this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certain types of opponents will raise the flop every time they raised preflop, and often check behind on the turn if they don't have a hand (less likely HU, but...). I sometimes go for the c/r, and sometimes lead out.

[no1super2001]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
either protect it on the turn or muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think giving villian ~7-1 on that board is going to *protect* you from any possible draws he could have?

I say call the turn and fold the river. On the turn he could have a lot of hands that are either very strong draws against you or two pairs that you have outs against. On the river pretty much every possible hand he could have beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I do not. The choices are protect it or fold. Fold is the best option, IMO.

[SCfuji]

you did fine

[Nak]

I call down here as well. I put him on a pair of tens easily one in six times (getting 5 to 1 on the turn call). I also call the river river. Nice hand.

Nak

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so players like this limp suited cards UTG all the time, but how can you put UTG on a flush? Way too narrow especially when villain may hold an OESD and wants to put the pressure on overcards.

I couldn't fold here HU on the turn.

In the future don't include the results in posts like this. Stop the action at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know the results until I read your post. Don't look at the results if you don't want to.

Nak

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]
grunching...

First, don't post the results. Even though they are in white, some may look and you don't get the best analysis.

Your hand is vulnerable, either protect it on the turn or muck it. If he is truly a calling station, why is he leading out betting? I am not sure his aggression numbers support the moniker. Let this go on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Protect your hand against what? If villain has a flush, he has a flush. If he has a one card flush draw, he still has odds to call your raise, same with a straight draw.

Nak

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
grunching...

First, don't post the results. Even though they are in white, some may look and you don't get the best analysis.

Your hand is vulnerable, either protect it on the turn or muck it. If he is truly a calling station, why is he leading out betting? I am not sure his aggression numbers support the moniker. Let this go on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I will learn to release the over pair, just takes a little bit of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you learn to release this hand, you will be learning to lose money. Villain will have a pair of tens enough to make calling down profitable (or a raise, see Shillx's very nice post below).

Nak

[Fantam]

I am replying before reading the results:
I think you played this fine. Although a 3rd flush card fell on the turn, UTG could have been betting Top Pair or drawing to a straight or an even weaker hand.

And even though the river card put 4 to a straight on the board, UTG wont always have that hand in these situations.

Calling to the river with a decent hand in a reasonable sized pot is not a big mistake. But folding a winning hand for 1 more bet in a big pot is.

Over the long run you should win enough of these hands to make calling to the river profitable.

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
Against good players, I will often times stop and go with good hands on these kinds of boards since a turn raise often represents a hand that is both looking for a showdown and folding to 3-bet. By just calling the raise and then betting the river, you leave your opponent wondering if you are going for another desperation bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is freakin' awesome; too bad I never play against good players to use it. Shill da man.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
either protect it on the turn or muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think giving villian ~7-1 on that board is going to *protect* you from any possible draws he could have?

I say call the turn and fold the river. On the turn he could have a lot of hands that are either very strong draws against you or two pairs that you have outs against. On the river pretty much every possible hand he could have beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I do not. The choices are protect it or fold. Fold is the best option, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this hand have to do with protection?

How would you "protect" here? The only answer is "raise". But a raise gives villain better than 8:1 to call. That's good enough to call with 5 outs. If he has a spade, you're not protecting. If he has a pair, you're not protecting. If he has an OESD, you're not protecting. If he has a better hand, you're not protecting.

In fact, the only way you're protecting anything is if he has a lone non-spade ace (3 outs) or if he has a jack or six with no spades for a gutshot (4 outs). And those are long shots given the action.

This spot is not about hand protection at all. It about figuring out how often villain is betting worse hands than yours (either a bluff or a mistaken value bet) compared to how often he is betting hands better than yours (two pair, straight, or flush) and figuring out how to play back at him that wins the most when you're ahead and loses the least when you're behind.

[no1super2001]

Perhaps I should have provided more detail in my response. I understand that there is no way to protect the hand here. This is why my advise was to fold to the turn bet.

Maybe it is a weak play, but the three flush and straight cards on the board in a small pot just do not make committing more money to the pot appealing to me.

BTW, thank you for the complete response. I am working to provide more depth and detail in my posts, and your repsonse called my attention to the fact it still needs work.

[dozer]

I would play it the same way. Calling down is fine in my opinion. You can't be folding overpairs everytime someone bets when there is a 3 flush on board headsup.