What can you do wrong at Sit&Gos???

[Atropos]

So, I have finished 175 Sit&Gos and my results suck:

69 x 22s: +10.67% ROI, 39.13 ITM, +162$
97x 33s: -5.34% ROI, 27.84 ITM, -171$
9x 55s: +1.01% ROI, 33.33 ITM, +5$

Only thing is: I dont know why my results suck so bad. Now I ask you:

a) Is it all variance? Small sample size etc... but plz take into consideration that I have played 7777 Sit&Go Hands, and that must have some inner meaning.

b) Play in levels 1-3 seems to be easy. Weak-tight, bet 1/2 pot etc... I was tilting some time, I dont have good reads and on average I lose 2 Chips during the first 3 levels.
But this isnt too much, is it?

c) Most of the Bubble Play seems easy and straightforward. Pushing is pure math, calling is pure math. Maybe 10% Intuition because one cant compute while playing but still. Only thing I have problem with is:

1. If there are 1-2 limpers, I'm on Button with X BB, how do I compute it? I need to know there limping ranges, SB call range, BB call Range, Fold Equity for Limper 1, Fold Equity for Limper 2, chance to win when called, ICM calculation.

2. Same against a minraiser, 3BB-Raiser, 3BB-Raiser + Coldcaller etc... How do I compute this easily?

d) If you have a big/clearly above average stack in level 3/level 4. Should you use it to gamble in very marginal +EV decisions, or should u use it to wait longer and pick your spots when stealing bettter?

e) When you have a low/clearly below average stack in level 3/ level 4. Should you try to gamble since your Equity is low anyways and you dont have much too lose and can start a newer Sit&Go quickly or should you wait for a good hand and hope to win 2-3 coinflips to get back?

[Voltron87]

175 sngs is not enough to draw conclusions.

but if you are asking whether 175 sngs is enough to draw conclusions and also say "oh the bubble is simple" you're probably not very good. I can't understand the rest of your questions.

[beeyjay]

a) I don't think so. Its definitly possible but not probable. I've had negative roi's over this many sngs but what worries me about your numbers is the ITM %. It really needs to be up around 40 and it tends to show its true self after far fewer sngs than roi. This leads me to beleive you have some serious leaks.

d. If you have a big stack in level 3 and 4 you should play very tight ~the same as levels 1-3. Around level 5 (i think its level 5, I'm talking when the blinds are 100/200) you should start to steal when you are in the sb/button type area.

e. You should probably not be pushing to steal in level 3 in many cases if you played correctly in levels 1-3. Once level 4 hits (50/100 blinds) you should begin stealing if you have ~<10 BB.

[citanul]

i'm getting really [censored] sick of people just going "is it all just variance."

although i personally appreciate how funny it would be to have my post end exactly there, i think i'll write more.

you've played 175 goddamn games, from the sample that we've been shown, you're not a very impressive sng player. honestly, your ITMs are just too low for me to say anything other than that you are bad player at first glance. if you had say, 15,000 games of success before this, and then had a run like this, yeah, i'd say "just variance." but as it is, Variance From What?

your itm is much more acceptable at the 20s than at the 30s and 50s. your roi at that level is still not to great.

just from these numbers there's absolutely no way for anyone to draw any conclusions about your play except for that the most likely cause of your bad results is bad play.

i'm gonna stop there.

citanul

[Maulik]

we need an FAQ on this forum!

175 SNGs!!! That's three nights of my play. Anything goes over three sessions of poker

[beeyjay]

I have a feeling its closer to 3 weeks for the op.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
we need an FAQ on this forum!

175 SNGs!!! That's three nights of my play. Anything goes over three sessions of poker

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean like one of these? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2375609 &fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

yeah, something like that would be handy. v.002 should be coming out soon.

citanul

[raptor517]

yea, what citanul said.. holla

[Freudian]

I don't think your results suck so bad. With a small sample and probably a few leaks in your game I think they are very reasonable.

Sometimes by reading on this forum you might get the impression that this is just a cashcow where you automatically will get 20%+ ROI. That is of course nonsense.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a big stack in level 3 and 4

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for dumb question, but what constitutes a "big" stack? How many XBB?

[lorinda]

Sorry for dumb question, but what constitutes a "big" stack? How many XBB?

There is no magic formula.

Say it 100 times, then write it 100 times.

There is no magic formula.

A big stack is a stack that is big.

When you understand why I've made this post, you'll be a better player. (And I like your posts in general, and your avatar even more, but the time for realism has arrived)

Lori

[Atropos]

"i'm getting really [censored] sick of people just going "is it all just variance."

Yes me too. Thats why I tried to word point a) in a way thats purely ironical.

However english is not my natural language, thats why nobody understands my posts.

I want to repost my questions with less words:

b) Show me some of your level 1-3 stats plz.

c) Most of the Bubble Play is easy:
Open-Pushing all-in and Calling all-in on the BB is simple math.

But something is difficult:

1. Pushing against limpers
2. Pushing against minraisers
Both variations include players yet to act!

Give me an easy way to compute 1. and 2. plz

d) If you have clearly above average chips in level 3:

YOU: 1500 Rest of the table average: 722

Your additional chips give you no "double-up" value. Gigabet said he likes to gamble with his extra-chips.
Is this sound advice even for poker mortals like me?

e) If you had a bad beat and you are down to 300 chips in level 2 or level 3.

Now your Equity% of the prize pool is very low.
If you lose, you can start a new sit&go where you got full equity.
Is that a reason to gamble?

[Atropos]

Ah and on a related note: PLZ PLZ dont judge me by post count or poorness of language. In a few days I will be here for 1 year and I have read most of the FAQs, famous threads, poker books etc...

If you want to write something obvious, dont. I know all the simple things. Try to read my poor sentences, read them a second time, see if you understand what I mean and if you cant give an answer then dont post "no, you cant do this", rather post:

no, because your $EV with big stack is X and gaining Y chips to have an X2 stack is not worth the risk p(y) because ICM says that 100 chips gained < 100 chips lost. However bigger stack = bigger fold equity = more push opportunities --> some implied EV etc...

[DasLeben]

Meh. 175 SNGs is nothing. I'm down (-8% ROI) over my last 130, and eastbay's prog says I rule at life. Obviously there is much more to it than that, but I feel as though I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to these things. *shrugs*

[raptor517]

over my last 175 sngs, i have a -21.4% roi with a 31.2% itm. over the 175 before that, i had a +29.6% roi with a 42.8% itm. what does this tell you? it tells me that im a swingy bastard that probably doesnt have a clue about how to play. or i am really awful, but got really lucky. or that i am really awesome, but couldnt WIN A DAMN SHOWDOWN FOR TWO DAYS STRAIGHT. yea. it can mean a lot of things. im not gonna tell you to come back when u have 5k sngs or anything, but come back when you have 10k sngs. holla

[Atropos]

I'm not interested in talking about variance, swings etc... It is obvious. I would appreciate if someone actually read what I wrote before posting.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not interested in talking about variance

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
a) Is it all variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[Atropos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not interested in talking about variance

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
a) Is it all variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Thats why I tried to word point a) in a way thats purely ironical.

However english is not my natural language, thats why nobody understands my posts. "

I now see my first post was worded to complex and poorly. That's why I made a clarification post maybe 3 or 4 posts above this one. But that doesnt seem to work, because everybody uses the threatened view and skips all my posts.

[uphigh_downlow]

You are asking very general questions and there is little to be learnt from any answer to those.

The only truthful answer is that there is no single answer. And if there were, do you think these guys would divulge it so easily.

If it was so easy to compute the things that you want, there would have been several very succesful bots, against who you would have little if any chance.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah and on a related note: PLZ PLZ dont judge me by post count or poorness of language. In a few days I will be here for 1 year and I have read most of the FAQs, famous threads, poker books etc...

If you want to write something obvious, dont. I know all the simple things. Try to read my poor sentences, read them a second time, see if you understand what I mean and if you cant give an answer then dont post "no, you cant do this", rather post:

no, because your $EV with big stack is X and gaining Y chips to have an X2 stack is not worth the risk p(y) because ICM says that 100 chips gained < 100 chips lost. However bigger stack = bigger fold equity = more push opportunities --> some implied EV etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Your English is fine. Everyone's could always be better, but yours is better than the English of many Americans, so you don't need to worry about that too much. If your questions are not clear, it's because of the thinking behind them, not the language. If you need to take more time to come up with good questions, it's because you need to think about them more, not find better words for them.

And they're not that bad anyway.

I would suggest asking fewer questions per post. That makes things less confusing and more focussed. Making more posts with fewer questions in each of them will probably get you more and better answers.

And, yes, you haven't played a lot of games to be drawing conclusions from. For instance, 69 20+2's? One or two first places more or less would have a huge affect on your ROI.

[Atropos]

[ QUOTE ]
You are asking very general questions and there is little to be learnt from any answer to those.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?? Either I'm thinking two levels above everyone else here or two levels below.

[rickr]

English is not my best language either. I think that's why people have trouble understanding my posts. The problem I'm having though is, it's the only language I know. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Rick

[wiggs73]

i think what others mean to say is:

a) it's too hard to tell anything meaningful from your sample size. play more sng's. you could be a bad player or you could be a good player on a bad streak. you haven't played enough to tell.

b) your questions are too general. you're attempting to generalize very tricky situations, which can rarely be done. it would be nearly impossible to put relevant values into all of your X's and Y's. it would do you a lot more good to find a situation that applies to one of your questions and post the hand history on here and ask how you should have played it.

hope that helps.

[Atropos]

a) I know and knew that even before posting. I just posted my sample size because it was over 7777 hands, which is cool.

b) Yes I tried that:
Limpers (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2438078&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Big Stack (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2438081&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Small Stack (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2438089&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[jeffraider]

Why are you playing $55s?

[Atropos]

Because I'm in the process of learning Sit&Gos and the 109s are said to be quite hard?

[ripped]

From the looks of your stats it seems you are a bad HU player. Looks like you get too many 3rds. I am thinking it's possible that you dont play the bubble very well and worry more about getting ITM more than winning the tournament. You probably blind out too much and get pushed around once you are in the money and dont steal/push enough. Your 39% ITM and 10% ROI dont match up and thats the only reason I can see other than Variance.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I'm in the process of learning Sit&Gos and the 109s are said to be quite hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting method of learning. I have been playing the $5.50's since Sept learning how to play SnG's.

[adanthar]

OK, I do understand what you meant so let me respond to you in order (no need to apologize for the English, BTW, it's fine):

1)Right off the top of my head, I can observe two things: you need to stick to one buyin level for now because your results and questions indicate that you are clearly not good enough for the 55's, and, your ITM is so low, even at the 20's, that you have major leaks everywhere in your game.

Having said that, your bubble thinking is on the right track. All of the things you ask about computing really come from reads and experience. Come back in 500 more tournaments and you'll have the answer yourself, really; in the meantime, you can construct a few default ranges in your head ("AA-TT, AK-AQ", "any ace, any pair", etc.) and try to group everyone into those. They will vary by blind level and by whether someone is the raiser or the caller, but you'll get the idea after a while anyway.

However, you have some big leaks. Losing 2 chips a level for the first three levels *is* a big deal. In fact, unless you've got more bad beats there than I've ever seen, it's horrible. You're also on the wrong track entirely with some of your questions about limpers - once you have those and there are deep stacks (above 8-12 BB), to a large degree you need to play poker.

I would start learning how to play that (in the 20's) by reading a lot of postflop play threads and then come back after a while. Your results should be positive at each and every level you play up until the last one or two, and in fact, it is much easier to keep them green the earlier it is in the tourney.

[Atropos]

"From the looks of your stats it seems you are a bad HU player."

Yeah in normal heads-up matches I am not very good. But Partypoker end game is not real heads-up, rather a function of pushing enough and calling enough. I dont gain much extra Equity that way, but I dont think that I lose too much either.

"I am thinking it's possible that you dont play the bubble very well and worry more about getting ITM more than winning the tournament."

It's quite possible I dont play the bubble very well - but I dont worry at all about getting ITM. When analysing my pushs afterwards it seems I have more very marginal pushes then missed out pushes. I think stats are completely worthless, because at the 33s my distribution of finishes is:

1st: 14
2nd: 5
3rd: 8

but only 27.84 ITM. But dont pay attention to those stats, they include a 10 OOTM series which isnt too common.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
but only 27.84 ITM. But dont pay attention to those stats, they include a 10 OOTM series which isnt too common.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i could ignore all my bad results, i would be sooooo good.

if youre going to throw out the times when you were unlucky, will you throw out the time you were lucky? i doubt it.

[Atropos]

THX Adanthar, that was a response I hoped for.

1) If I were playing for money you are right, but I play to learn Sit&Gos as fast as possible. I have played all other poker variants and so my BR is huge. Losing some of it for learning faster is ok for me.

2) Putting opponents on hands is sure a thing by experience.
My question is more like this:

If I have AQ, opponent limps only pocket pairs. If I think he will call me every time, how do the stack sizes have to be that I dont make an error pushing?

This is really impossible to answer, thats why I wanted to have a formula or something so that I could analyse every situation where I pushed against a limper if it has been correct EV-wise.

3) Yeah many bad beats, more bad play. I will work on it.

4) My questions are not about early level limpers. Rather about level 4 or 5 players who limp with A7o and stuff where every 2+2 player would simply push. Playing poker seems difficult, because no implied odds for pocket pairs are there and one false bet makes one pot committed.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

if youre going to throw out the times when you were unlucky, will you throw out the time you were lucky? i doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that me not recording any SNG where I finish OTM is wrong? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Atropos]

If you flip 100 coins. Get 90 heads in a row.
Is it wrong to say "dont pay too much attention to these stats, they included a highly improbably streak".

Are you able to understand this or do I have to word it easier?