people are MORANS sometimes... money stuff...

[bholdr]

so:

I manage an apartment building, which is really mostly a part time thing... i'm also a painter by trade and supplement my income with that and poker, I've never been even marginally well-to-do, even compared to my peers, but one thing i've always done is make sure that i have a few months living expenses in various bank accounts, investments, and cash.

on the other hand, every month, at least one of my tenants (35 units in the building) cannot pay their rent. they scramble all month long to avoid eviction, and when they finally do make the payment, they're screwed for the next month's rent. it's usually somethng like an injury, layoff, unexpected expense, etc..

and everytime, i think to my self... how the hell can they live like that?! living paycheck to paycheck is one of the stupidest things that a person can do: one little slip-up, say the company you work for goes under and cannot pay you, or you strain your back and cannot work for a couple weeks, and you're screwed; your credit is shot, your rental history is destroyed, you're out on the street; good luck ever getting another lease without a monster deposit (which, obviously, you don't have). what are you gonna do? call your parents? c'mon!

does anyone here live like this? it's so incredibly stupid, i'll understand if you don't want to share. personally, i can't sleep well at night without knowing that i have easy access to a reasonable sum of money (a few K)...

i guess i'll do a poll: (thoughts?)

[Yeti]

I think the results you get will be somewhat skewed.

[Sponger15SB]

How can you possibly be so ignorant?

For some people, living paycheck to paycheck is unavoidable for any number of legitament reasons.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the results you get will be somewhat skewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

how so?

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you possibly be so ignorant?

For some people, living paycheck to paycheck is unavoidable for any number of legitament reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not true. If they are in an equilibrium situation (ie; steady job or welfare) there really is no excuse for not saving at all. Putting away just $50 or a $100 a month is not impossible for almost anyone I've described.

-SmileyEH

[Yeti]

I just meant because you're asking this on a message board where a healthy portion of regular posters do very well for themselves. Therefore, they probably have good self-control and financial awareness, with surplus money to tuck away and invest. It's a lot different to asking it randomly on the street.

Plus, a lot of people here are young and have no such responsibilities yet.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you possibly be so ignorant?

For some people, living paycheck to paycheck is unavoidable for any number of legitament reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

ignorant? i included a "i'm poor, get off my back, already." option. (it's 'legitimate' btw)

but, i do believe (and this is a total liberal bleeding heart talking here) that the vast majority of pepole living paycheck-to-paycheck are doing it because they are irresponsible with their money. i have been VERY poor, making less than 1k a month and renting my own place, but i STILL managed to save... it's not rocket science, you just buy cheaper things and don't waste money (or work more/harder).

the ignorant people are those that don't pay attention to their finances, and get themselves in situations where they 'have' to live paycheck to paycheck.

even at the worst case scenario, it should be possible to save 5-10% of your monthly income, and in a year, that's a month in the bank. i'm not talking about 'single mother high school dropouts on welfare', etc, of course.

[bholdr]

okay, but i was intrested in sampling this board, so my results will be very accurate.

i, too, would expect the general public to have a much different distribution of responses to a poll like this.

[Benal]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live paycheck to paycheck than be a bum on the street.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about you, but I'd rather live paycheck to paycheck than be a bum on the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

so? what's that supposed to mean?

[Rotating Rabbit]

Yeah spot on. I mean like this board consists of some losers but mostly people who think about using money to make money (albeit betting it!) a lot.

[daryn]

do you think they really choose to live like that? if all your money from work goes to paying your bills (and i mean necessities not like mcdonalds and manicures) then what choice do you have? how can you save?

some people are just in bad situations man. why would they CHOOSE to live paycheck to paycheck?

[SpearsBritney]

[ QUOTE ]
that the vast majority of pepole living paycheck-to-paycheck are doing it because they are irresponsible with their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am surprized to see a statement like this from you. Although I would agree that this would apply to a certain percentage of people, I would disagree that it's the vast majority. There are far more people unable to make ends meet as a result of their income. As far as being financially irresponsible, this is not an easy affliction to overcome. I liken it to losing weight or quitting smoking. You are very fortunate to possess the discipline it takes to save money, but for some people this is almost impossible.

[TStoneMBD]

its ridiculous that people live like this. i dont know how its possible.

i read somewhere that the average networth of renters is like $1,400 while the average networth of home owners is $27000. if either of those numbers are truth its truly pathetic.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
do you think they really choose to live like that? if all your money from work goes to paying your bills (and i mean necessities not like mcdonalds and manicures) then what choice do you have? how can you save?

some people are just in bad situations man. why would they CHOOSE to live paycheck to paycheck?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, they do choose. but it's not like they think to themselves: "i'm gonna go blow this money that i should be saving" it's that they've never learned how to manage their money properly. I have met VERY few people (in fact, i cannot think of one right now) that could legitimatly claim to be using ALL of their money to pay bills and living expenses (and i've lived in some ghettos).

even if this was the case, i'll bet they're wasting money in lots of ways- not taking advantage of the best deals at the supermarket, buying things that they think that they need but they don't, going out, driving instead of riding the bus, not working as much as they could, etc, etc...
(food is a big one- a person can eat well on like $60/month, but most people are unwilling to make the effort to do so. personally i am too lazy to cook every day, and i spend like $300 a month or more on food)

i believe, from my experiences as a poor person and my freinds and aquaintences experiences, that the VAST majority of people that live paycheck to paycheck do so because of their own irresponsibility rather than for legitimate reasons.

they 'CHOOSE' to live this way because it's easier and they have never taken the time to learn any other way- and most haven't been bitten in the ass by their lifestyle yet, but it happens, and i see it every month.

i'm sure that there are some people that are just in bad situations, but, they're the tiny minority of people living this way. also, many of them likely got into that situation by living month-to-month.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
I am surprized to see a statement like this from you. Although I would agree that a this would apply to a certain percentage of people, I would disagree that it's the vast majority. There are far more people unable to make ends meet as a result of their income. As far as being financially irresponsible, this is not an easy affliction to overcome. I liken it to losing weight or quitting smoking. You are very fortunate to possess the discipline it takes to save money, but for some people this is almost impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can have some shockingly conservitive positions sometimes, huh?

it's not only their income that limits their ability to escape the viscious cycle fo paycheck to paycheck living, but society and business empowers that lifestyle through the extension of easy credit, welfare programs that do not include education, laws that favor debtors, etc... but, at the heart of it, you're responsible for yourself.

i like the 'losing weight' analogy- it's very appropriate, but i believe that the VAST MAJORITY of obese people are so because they choose it, too, lack of discipline or no. lacking dicipline isn't exactly a disability, it's a fault, and one that people should work to correct.

(oh, god, i'll be bombing abortiion clinics and voting republican any day now)

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about you, but I'd rather live paycheck to paycheck than be a bum on the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

so? what's that supposed to mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're asking how can people live paycheck to paycheck, when often their only option is that or homelessness

[IronDragon1]

[ QUOTE ]
its ridiculous that people live like this. i dont know how its possible.

i read somewhere that the average networth of renters is like $1,400 while the average networth of home owners is $27000. if either of those numbers are truth its truly pathetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your opinions and all, MBD, but I really doubt the veracity of this statistic.

And to the OP, have you ever considered the possibility it's far from impossible that at least 1 out of your 35 tenants has some unavoidable emergency which causes them to be in such a financial bind?

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
You're asking how can people live paycheck to paycheck, when often their only option is that or homelessness

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the thing, i don't believe that's their only other option (in the vast majority of cases). see my other posts in this thread for an explanation.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
And to the OP, have you ever considered the possibility it's far from impossible that at least 1 out of your 35 tenants has some unavoidable emergency which causes them to be in such a financial bind?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's exactly what happens... and it's exactly why it's stupid to live paycheck to paycheck. it's not that hard to saveup a months living expenses over the course of a year. (at least, for most people this should be easy). if those people had done so, the 'unavoidable emergency' is meerly an inconvenience, and i wouldn't have to evict them, which sucks, believe me.

[SpearsBritney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And to the OP, have you ever considered the possibility it's far from impossible that at least 1 out of your 35 tenants has some unavoidable emergency which causes them to be in such a financial bind?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's exactly what happens... and it's exactly why it's stupid to live paycheck to paycheck. it's not that hard to saveup a months living expenses over the course of a year. (at least, for most people this should be easy). if those people had done so, the 'unavoidable emergency' is meerly an inconvenience, and i wouldn't have to evict them, which sucks, believe me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is happening to you?

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
I am still in high school and this doesn't apply to me. (for tbach)

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit to ask-

How to homeless people get where they are? Why are they unable to get out of their situation? (I'm not being an a'hole, I legitemately don't know and am curious)

Edit to add- I mean the panhandlers

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is happening to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm in a bad mood, for starters, and i just had to evict a dude that i liked a lot. we'd have a beer together once in a while, etc. trouble is, this guy wouldn't have had a problem if he'd saved just a little bit every month, instead of blowing it on beers and so on.

EVERY SINGLE TIME that someone has been late with their rent, this has been the case, as far as i can tell.

also, i'd have to estimate that 80% of my freinds from around the neighborhood live this way (and for no good reason), and it's just plain dumb, imo. every time i hear somebody say something like "i don't know how i'm gonna pay my rent this month" i want to smack them and say "fer god's sake, man, what the hell are you doing renting a $600 apartment without having some money in the bank!? you could've gotten a roommate or a $500 apartment, saved the difference, and not have to stress out and screw up your credit and rental history!"


seriously, i've been so poor that i had to live on rice n' beans, but i've never paid rent even a day late. unavoidable emergencies are part of life, it pays to plan for that and save some dough.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit to ask-

How to homeless people get where they are? Why are they unable to get out of their situation? (I'm not being an a'hole, I legitemately don't know and am curious)

Edit to add- I mean the panhandlers

[/ QUOTE ]

they get there by living paycheck-to-paycheck!

just kidding. the great majority of the homeless have mental or physical disabilities, or drug or alcohol addictions; many are incurable, and the best solution is to shelter and care for them as much as possible. tjose that aren't beyond help sometimes chose to maintain their lifestyle, or lack the education and capital to do any better, in those cases, we should educate, motivate, etc...

[SpearsBritney]

Ok, I'm starting to understand where you're coming from on this one.

[ QUOTE ]
and i just had to evict a dude that i liked a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch, that would really suck. I would not want to be in your shoes right now. Nor his, for that matter.

[Rob Blackburn]

[ QUOTE ]

(food is a big one- a person can eat well on like $60/month, but most people are unwilling to make the effort to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]

$60 a month? Is this like eating Top Ramen 3 meals a day or what?

Tell me how to do this, because I hate spending money on groceries, I just was at Wal-Mart I bought $200 worth of crap and when I got home I was like, thats not even that much stuff.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
$60 a month? Is this like eating Top Ramen 3 meals a day or what?


[/ QUOTE ]

rice, beans, potatos, onions, carrots, frozen meat, apples, and whatever else is cheap. (and some ramen. top ramen is too expensive, though, get 'smack' brand noodles- or 'mi goreng pedlas'- supper yummy spicy indonesian noodles)

buy in bulk, do not buy any prepared food, cook everything yourself. shop at places like costco and grocery outlets (just check the date on everything), farmer's markets, fruit stands, don't be too proud to swing by the food bank, they often are giving away some really good stuff. also, one of the cheapest ways to get fruits and vegtables is to buy them directly from the growers. i used to swing by a farm once a month and get my month's supply of potatos, carrots, apples, etc, for like $20, and that'd be like 40lbs of food. go to the farmers markets at the end of the day and buy up whatever they have leftover real cheap- they don't wanna haul that stuff back anyway. don't buy any snack food, cheese, expensive condiments, pre-made sauces, etc...

also, grow your own peppers, this saves a ton, and i can't live without peppers.


I feel like i should explain why i would live like this: i was a ski bum at the time, and every penny i made went towards ski gear (i break things). i was living with some rastafarians in bellingham, washington, where ther's very little work to be had and low pay even if you're lucky enough to have a job. i made a resolution not to touch my savings for a year, and almost kept it. the rastas taught me how to eat and live cheaply, but still well, and i have to say it was a good life, though one i'll never go back to. i just like steaks and good wine and going out too much. (BTW, peppers aren't the only things we grew. /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[Blarg]

When you come from nothing, you start with no references and no savings. Many tens of millions of U.S. citizens are like that, and even more so the immigrants.

Getting ANYTHING in the bank is almost impossible when you're in that state. The only jobs you get are the worst ones at the lowest pay, for which there is actually a ferocious amount of competition in all but the very best economies, the likes of which are very uncommon in the last 30 years in the States. And those aren't jobs that will give you good references to move up. You're stuck in limbo in those jobs for the most part.

Meantime, you're barely making rent and food, at least in lots of decent sized cities where the rent and living expenses are very high. Going to school is tough because school is extremely expensive these days and you're working full time, maybe even two jobs. And if you get a student loan, you have to start paying it off immediately, the very first month you get it. Yet it all goes to school, so what you've really done is just acquire another expensive monthly debt on your already incredibly tiny budget, with no commensurate salary increase to help pay for it.

Meanwhile, your rent is going up two or three times as much every year as your pay increases are even if you just get cost of living, which most people in those jobs do not get. Never mind merit raises -- those are mostly dead and gone in today's low-wage economy.

Food goes up, everything goes up, yet your salary remains about the same. Effectively, if you're poor, unless you get lucky, you get poorer every year.

It seems crazy that poor people can be poor or stay poor, unless you've been there and see how on the edge they are and how little opportunity they have from personal experience. Saving $50 a month is impossible for many people; like you note, all it takes is the tiniest misfortune to destroy what little safety they may miraculously manage to scrape together: an injury, a car breakdown, a subway or bus strike, the firing or lay-offs that are constant in that sector of the economy, etc. It can take many years of living truly like an absolute animal to scrape together a few thousand dollars when you're on the lower end of the scale. Most people would go insane even coming close to living like that, so poor people have human nature -- the desire to live at least a somewhat bearable life with a little joy in it -- working against them in concert with the pressures of mere survival.

It makes all the difference in the world if you've got someplace to turn and some safety net; building up a few thousand when you're a few steps up the ladder can be very though, but it's nothing remotely like what it is when you're at the bottom of the ladder. I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that unless you've been there, it's quite simply and absolutely completely beyond your comprehension what that's really like and how hard it is.

Which is a shame, because the first people to make disparaging remarks and observations about the poor are generally the people who have never come close to having real troubles or challenges in their lives, though they often imagine they have -- and they're often pretty smug and gleeful about doing so, too. Many of the poor people I've known demonstrate more guts, hard work, decency, and integrity in a week than the better off people I've known do in spans of years on end.

It's funny, I go to a rich friend's home and can't get a glass of water, or right in front of you they give you a warm one from the tap while they pour themselves some nice cold bottled water from the fridge. I go to a poor friend's place and they offer everything they have.

One last thing -- living from paycheck to paycheck is something even many of the rich do. It's hardly something that distinguishes the poor.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Food goes up, everything goes up, yet your salary remains about the same. Effectively, if you're poor, unless you get lucky, you get poorer every year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be totally off on my read here, but you seem to have construed my post as something of an attack on the poor, or some such. it was not. i admit that there are people out there that are genuinely incapable of saving up a nest egg, even though they try, and i am in favor of steps like raising the minimus wage to help those people gain financial independance. there was not one time in my original post where i specified that poor people were the ones that i was describing. (in fact, the poll had a box for 'i'm poor, get off my back already'- which implies that i am aware that soem people don't make enough to save.)

what baffles me, however, is the great majority of people that DO live paycheck to paycheck do not have to, and through their own irresponsibility, they set themselves up to turn what should be a minor problem (an injury, a layoff, an unexpected expense) into a crippling disaster. especially young people.

...and getting 'lucky' is not the only path out of poverty, not by a long shot.

[ QUOTE ]
One last thing -- living from paycheck to paycheck is something even many of the rich do. It's hardly something that distinguishes the poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know! it's stupid! especially so if it's easy to save some money.

[ QUOTE ]
Which is a shame, because the first people to make disparaging remarks and observations about the poor are generally the people who have never come close to having real troubles or challenges in their lives, though they often imagine they have -- and they're often pretty smug and gleeful about doing so, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again, i did not intend, in any way, to disparage the disadvantaged; my post was intended to point out that those people that live paycheck to paycheck often do so because they lack the disipline or common sense to keep at least one month's expenses in the bank. I do aggree however, that those that want to remark about the poor generally lack personal experience with that lifestyle.

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny, I go to a rich friend's home and can't get a glass of water, or right in front of you they give you a warm one from the tap while they pour themselves some nice cold bottled water from the fridge. I go to a poor friend's place and they offer everything they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

methinks YOU'RE the one making genralizations about people based on their income levels... /images/graemlins/grin.gif ([censored] rich bastards!- i know the type.)

[BusterStacks]

I don't technically live check to check, but I live extremely light and keep every dollar besides the bare minimum in my poker bankroll. In theory this should pay off some day...

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone here live like this? it's so incredibly stupid,

[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty clearly implies that you think it's either entirely voluntary or that it's a situation that can be easily enough fixed.

It's not, especially for poor people. The way you speak of saving a few K up and having investments and such applies well to some people, but not many, many others.

But beyond that, it's not even that easy for middle class people. Most people in America are living in debt, and are spending historically enormous portions of their income on housing. Home prices are sky-high, and that drives rental prices up too. And of course the lower down the scale you are, the worse it hits you.

Most people in America live paycheck to paycheck. Your question asks if anyone here lives like that. I'd bet well over 95% of the readers of this or most any forum live like that. It's the way the world works these days. You can get hardly anywhere without either being already in the money or by taking on debt -- student loan debt, mortgage debt, car debt, you name it.

[ QUOTE ]
how the hell can they live like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not easily.

It's still possible for most middle class people to save a bit more, though, and it definitely adds up over time.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's funny, I go to a rich friend's home and can't get a glass of water, or right in front of you they give you a warm one from the tap while they pour themselves some nice cold bottled water from the fridge. I go to a poor friend's place and they offer everything they have.

[/ QUOTE ]



methinks YOU'RE the one making genralizations about people based on their income levels... ([censored] rich bastards!- i know the type.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Too true, too true, that I've seen this happen over and over again. I had a lot of rich friends at one point. I mean, I've had rich friends be incredibly generous about making you at home and such, but they were a huge exception. Most were painfully tight and selfish. I mean, to the extent that I was absolutely shocked at their lack of hospitality.

Compared to being a guest elsewhere, that kind of poor treatment was nowhere close to the rule; it was always the exception. The rich frequently seem to have an "us and them" mentality that is much less common in people who consider themselves naturally a part of the "them," and it shows. Glaringly and transparently. To the extent of often being absolutely cartoon-like.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
This pretty clearly implies that you think it's either entirely voluntary or that it's a situation that can be easily enough fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

for the great majority of people, i do believe that it is both voluntary and easily fixed. I've never known anyone (with any kind of marketable skill and a reasonable income) that was responsible with their money, thrifty and frugal, and wasn't able to save a portion of their income when they tried. people just waste money, the great majority of people are not getting maximum value for their $$$. why? because they're lazy, irresponsible, or weak; not because the system is set up to keep them down or some such commie hogwash.

[ QUOTE ]
But beyond that, it's not even that easy for middle class people.

[/ QUOTE ]

bullsht. it IS easy, but most people just don't realize it. they buy into the 'must own a nice car and all the cool stuff' mentality and screw themselves in the long run. ANYONE that is making a middle class income (say 40-200k/year) and is living paycheck to paycheck has no one but themselves to blame. to think otherwise is to dodge personal responsibility. in the U.S, if you're making an avarage of 12-14$/hr (not much at all) you SHOULD be able to save money. ride the bus for a month or two, cook your own food instead of going out or buying microwave meals, move into a cheaper apartment, DON'T buy that plasma TV, don't play poker (or, play more poker if you're a winner), pick up a few extra hours of work, buy a used car instead of a new one, cancel your cable subscription, etc, etc... there are TONS of ways to save a few bucks a month, and people that don't do so are setting themselves up for a big fall.

[ QUOTE ]
You can get hardly anywhere without either being already in the money or by taking on debt -- student loan debt, mortgage debt, car debt, you name it.


[/ QUOTE ]

also wrong, except for student loan debt, which is generally structured to be very managable, even on a very modest income. the belief thet this is the case is so pervasive that people often don't see the other options. and debt itself isn't a problem, it's the irresponsible managment of debt.

[ QUOTE ]
The rich frequently seem to have an "us and them" mentality that is much less common in people who consider themselves naturally a part of the "them," and it shows.

[/ QUOTE ]
i aggree, BUT, there are certian qualities that lead a person down the path to becoming wealthy, and frugality is one of them.


[ QUOTE ]
Most people in America live paycheck to paycheck. Your question asks if anyone here lives like that. I'd bet well over 95% of the readers of this or most any forum live like that, It's the way the world works these days.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO, it's the way people live these days, and it's stupid and irresponsible. i make exactly 17$/hr, and i work less than 30hrs/week, yet i save/bank over $400/month. you're implying that what i'm doing is impossible, it is not, and it should be the standard instead of the exception. saying 'it's the way the world works' is a cop-out, ducking responsibility for one's own actions and habits. 'poor me!, the world and the system are set up to keep me down!' is the standard complaint of the lazy or irresponsible person. (again, i accept that there is a minority for which this is impossible. bummer.)


Bottom line? it all comes down to a willingness to accept responsibility for one's own situation in life, and to rise above the consumer/debt socioeconomic paradigm.

additionally, the results of the poll seem to have shown that the majority of this forum is not living paycheck to paycheck, which is no less than i would expect from a bunch of supposedly winning poker players: a irrepresentive sample, to be sure.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
a person can eat well on like $60/month, but most people are unwilling to make the effort to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'ld be curious as to your definition of "eating well."

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a person can eat well on like $60/month, but most people are unwilling to make the effort to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'ld be curious as to your definition of "eating well."

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually spend less than this in a month. I only eat oatmeal with water and raw potatoes with some salt.

[Blarg]

Then you haven't known as many people or types of people as you think you have, by a very remarkable measure. And that's quite an understatement.

Whatever commie hogwash is supposed to mean, I think that phrase pretty clearly illustrates a certain ignorance or willfull disconnect from reality.

Really, despite your protests to the contrary, it's pretty clear that you're approaching all these issues from the level of knowledge and experience and understanding of someone who has not really had a hard time in life, and you have been very assiduous or curious in your efforts to travel beyond your limited point of view. Heck, your remarks about how "manageable" student loan payments are to the poor is ample evidence of that all by itself. An extra 50 or 100 or 125 bucks a month in after-tax money is HUGE to many people. Many, many people. I have no idea where you live, but in big cities, getting by on low wages is very tough. Trying to go to school while doing it is tougher still. Trying to go to school while doing it and paying off student loans at the same time is tougher still.

The poor and even lower middle class are invisible to many Americans, and you seem to be one of them. Believe me, if you were living on minimum wage, without resources or safety nets, you would find it a task of great difficulty to get ahead in life and save up thousands of dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line? it all comes down

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Bottom line is that looking for a bottom line to apply to everyone equally is excessively simplistic thinking that you're using to tar and feather everyone with the same brush.

It's lovely to think we have, or can have, all the answers wrapped up into a few clever phrases or some kind of tight, cute package, and we can just tie the bow and have a lovely present to gift the world with. The truth is that the world and the people in it are simply much messier and more complex than that, and we do both them and ourselves a disservice by giving in to our ego and pretending any different.

[Shajen]

A better question would be how long could you last with no money coming in?


I could probably go a year, but it would be tough. My retirement savings would be completely destroyed in the process. It would suck.

To the OP:

I do see your point. My sister in law recently went through a divorce. She was having a rough go of it, so my wife and I spotted her a few hundred bucks, for groceries, gas, etc. A couple days later, we went over to her house. Her youngest daughter was wearing a completely new outfit, and she'd gone out on a date.

I pretty much refuse to give her money anymore. Her priorites weren't food, gas, and bills, it was buying a new [censored] shirt and a pair of pants for her kid...who has a closet full of [censored] she could have worn, and eating out in some restaurant. I was pretty pissed. Still am, actually. The money wasn't much to me, it wasn't a big deal. What she did with it is what kills me.

Some people are retarded when it comes to money. I think everyone should experience financial difficulty in their life...it'll (hopefully) make them appreciate money more.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone here live like this? it's so incredibly stupid, i'll understand if you don't want to share. personally, i can't sleep well at night without knowing that i have easy access to a reasonable sum of money (a few K)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have lived out of my car and at times have had literally no cash to my name. I remember once being down to my last dollar. I had to get to work 50 miles away and my gas tank was empty. I thought if I bought a dollars worth of gas I had a fair chance of making it to work. Instead I bought one of those lotto scratchers. I won $20. I got to fill my gas tank and eat all in the same day!

I'm sure i could have lived fiscally more responsibly but instead I chose to party. I had a good time and I don't regret it one bit. I was young an needed to get things out of my system.

Stu

[on_thg]

[ QUOTE ]
also wrong, except for student loan debt, which is generally structured to [censored] you in the [censored] and be totally unmanagable if you got an advanced degree or two, especially on a very modest income.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Part of the problem is that making adjustments to your lifestyle isn't always as easy as the OP would make it seem. -- for example, move from a $600 apartment to a $500 one? Sure, *if* you don't have a lease. Similarly, once you've made the decision to buy a house, to buy or lease a car, pop out a kid or two or to go to [censored] grad school, you've made a financial decision that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. You're screwed for a period of years.

People make dumb choices. Conceded. And yes, we should all live below our means and save. Agreed. But saying that it should be no problem to cut expenses and/or increase income to do so is absurd.

[mackthefork]

How old are you? People don't choose to be poor, they just are, not everyone can earn 70k a year, thats just a fact.

Mack

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Her youngest daughter was wearing a completely new outfit, and she'd gone out on a date.

I pretty much refuse to give her money anymore. Her priorites weren't food, gas, and bills, it was buying a new [censored] shirt and a pair of pants for her kid.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was clearly an investment in their future. Seriously.

As far as the OP, I completely agree. I have about $15k student debt. I work for a startup, and only make $25K/year before taxes. I work 60 hour weeks, typically, so say about $8-9/hr pretax wage. I drive a '94 4Runner, so I have gas and insurance expenses.

How come I can live comfortably with those expenses and under $10/hr, and others can't?

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember once being down to my last dollar. I had to get to work 50 miles away and my gas tank was empty. I thought if I bought a dollars worth of gas I had a fair chance of making it to work. Instead I bought one of those lotto scratchers. I won $20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice dude, that is a good story.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you possibly be so ignorant?

For some people, living paycheck to paycheck is unavoidable for any number of legitament reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the short term sometimes. But there's no reason except for laziness, ignorance or stupidity for people to spend their whole lives that way.

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]
This was clearly an investment in their future. Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. I believe her excuse was "I couldn't tell her no"


Lame. My wife and I got her into debt counciling. She seriously needed it.

[NoChance]

I used to live like this shortly after college. I had 3 credit cards and they were always near max. I had a roommate that used to call 1-900 numbers and ran my bill up to $5000. (That is another story in itself as the phone complany can block 1-900 numbers but not 1-800 numbers and apparently many of the 1-800 numbers can be called and then turn into 1-900 numbers - complicated) The phone company said I was responsible for it because the bill was in my name (even though I put a block on those numbers). I refused to pay it. My credit was ruined. That was 14 years ago. Just the past couple years I was finally able to get my credit staightened out.

However, during the first few years after college I definately lived check to check. I lived with my girlfriend at the time and we both worked for the same place so we got paid at the same time. We got paid every two weeks and there were times where we litteraly had to between paychecks with about $30 between the two of us (after paying bills - that came first). We even had to resort to signing up for food handouts once a week at the food shelter thingy.

Anyway, that lasted a couple years and then we broke up and I moved to MN due to a job opportunity. I lived with my sister for 4 years. During that time, if a large bill or an emergency came up, I was forced to borrow money from her to get by. She had plenty of money and had no problem doing that for me while I worked my way out of debt. In time, I finally got my credit cards paid off as I put that as my number one priority. After that, climbing out of debt was much easier.

In the past couple years, Hold Em has been what has put me over the top. I took a chance with $100 on PokerStars and did my best to learn the game at the lower limits. In September it will be two years of online Hold Em. I am currently just under $27,000 in profit and still play the $1/2 through $3/6 games. I used most of that money to pay off old debt which is partly the reason I still play those low limits. Plus, I learned the hard way how important it is to have extra money put away. Therefore, I have never been much of a risktaker (other than that initial $100) and have stayed at the lower limits.

Now I have probably enough money put away to live at least 6 months if I were to get laid off from work or something bad happen. I recently bought a new car and my credit is spotless because I was forced to pay everything in cash. (After a while all that old stuff finally falls off your record)

So, I do know how it is to live from check to check. Sometimes it really is unavoidable. It's a very long battle to get out of it. It's especially tough at a younger age when you have not worked your way up in salary yet and all your friends (who are not in the same situation) are out spending money and having a good time. It can be difficult.

[NoChance]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember once being down to my last dollar. I had to get to work 50 miles away and my gas tank was empty. I thought if I bought a dollars worth of gas I had a fair chance of making it to work. Instead I bought one of those lotto scratchers. I won $20.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a similar situation like this near Christmas time years ago. My parents lived a couple hours away and I was out of money (Christmas time can be harsh when living like this). Anyway, about half way home I noticed the gas tank was on empty and I had zero money in my wallet. Credit cards were maxed.

My Grandmother always gave us $5 worth of coupons every Christmas. I ended up stopping at a Hardees along the interstate and looking for the cheapest menu item. I bought the items one at a time (I think it was $0.29 or something like that) and used the change $0.71 x 5 to put gas in the tank and get home.

[CCass]

[ QUOTE ]
How old are you? People don't choose to be poor, they just are, not everyone can earn 70k a year, thats just a fact.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that noone would ask to be poor. However, I think what the OP is pointing out is that many people make choices that push them towards being poor. Read the book "The Millionaire Next Door".

[MaxPower]

Some people choose to live this way (by spending too much) and some have it thrust upon them (by earning too little despite mangaging their money well).

Sometimes it is just temporary and they may find their financial situation better in the future. When I was in grad school I earned very little and lived in a very expensive city. I lived paycheck to paycheck, but I always made sure I had enough to pay my bills. Now I have savings.

Also did anyone point out that you spelled moron wrong in the title of your post?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that noone would ask to be poor. However, I think what the OP is pointing out is that many people make choices that push them towards being poor. Read the book "The Millionaire Next Door".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do, what I was saying is that not everyone can be a millionaire, therefore they are not responsible for the fact they aren't.

Regards Mack

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
some have it thrust upon them (by earning too little despite mangaging their money well).

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I make a wage that is barely above minimum wage. A waiter at Chili's could likely make more.

How come I can live comfortably, while saving, and others can't?

[NoChance]

[ QUOTE ]
How come I can live comfortably, while saving, and others can't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone's level of comfort is different.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How come I can live comfortably, while saving, and others can't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone's level of comfort is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! But if you're level of comfort exceeds your income, then you need to adjust one or the other or both. Some idiots just refuse to do this.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
it's usually somethng like an injury, layoff, unexpected expense, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you cite this as their reason for misfortune, and then go on to say it's their fault because they're irresponsible with money? Some people have no choice.

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit to ask-

How to homeless people get where they are? Why are they unable to get out of their situation? (I'm not being an a'hole, I legitemately don't know and am curious)



[/ QUOTE ]

Since no-one else replied - a third have schizophrenia. About another third got there as a result of substance abuse. I don't know about the final third.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How to homeless people get where they are? Why are they unable to get out of their situation? (I'm not being an a'hole, I legitemately don't know and am curious)


[/ QUOTE ]

Since no-one else replied - a third have schizophrenia. About another third got there as a result of substance abuse. I don't know about the final third.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some fall on hard times, but a surprising number are homeless by choice.

[-Skeme-]

How did you determine that a surprising number are homeless by choice?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
How did you determine that a surprising number are homeless by choice?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...after I typed this, I knew I was gonna get questions. I saw some statistics awhile back and the number was...surprising (to me at least). Might've had to do with the sample though. But no, i don't recall the actual number or source.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

Sure they do, what I was saying is that not everyone can be a millionaire, therefore they are not responsible for the fact they aren't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can live below their means. Anyone can save money. Anyone can get rich, even with a modest income. Let's you're 25 and make only 30K, a modest income by any standard. Save 10% and invest it until you're 65, and you retire a millionaire.

And that's in the extreme case that you never got a rasie your entire life.

[-Skeme-]

Uh, in 40 years, having a million dollars won't make you rich. Hell, you're barely rich by today's standards with only a million dollars. You're also counting on no sudden need for money in those entire 40 years. And your money being nice and safe. What if you need an emergency surgery? Or a family member dies and needs a funeral which you can't cover?

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, in 40 years, having a million dollars won't make you rich. Hell, you're barely rich by today's standards with only a million dollars. You're also counting on no sudden need for money in those entire 40 years. And your money being nice and safe. What if you need an emergency surgery? Or a family member dies and needs a funeral which you can't cover?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, play along. I was using a very extrmeme example of someone never getting a raise their ENTIRE LIFE. If their salary went up 3% per year to match inflation (like most people) and they kept investing just 10%, they would have many MANY millions in 40 years.

The point is, anyone can get very rich over time without a huge income. A huge income just makes it easier. If you think it's impossible to save 10% of your income, you're wrong.

[GFunk911]

The phrase "I'm saving up to take a vacation" comes to mind repeatedly reading this thread. When I hear people say that it blows my mind

(Obviously if a person normally saves X a month, and deicdes to save X+Y a month and use Y for vacation, that's different, that's not the person I'm talking about).

The premise of this thread is still perfectly valid if you only take about people making more than X/year, without bad outside factors. That gets rid of the perceived poor bashing.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
The poor and even lower middle class are invisible to many Americans, and you seem to be one of them. Believe me, if you were living on minimum wage, without resources or safety nets, you would find it a task of great difficulty to get ahead in life and save up thousands of dollars.


[/ QUOTE ]

i have. i did. i know others that have done so. it was difficult, but you imply that it's impossible; it is not. I also live in a working class urban, racially, socially, and financially diverse neighborhood in a major city- i am still somewhat poor; my freinds are definitly poor; the tenants in my building range from well-off to marginally poor (rents are $650+). the great majority of them are living paycheck to paycheck unnecessarily. you're make assumptions about my experiences based on my opinions, and your assumptions couldn't be farther off the mark.

i'll repeat myself one more time, maybe this time you'll pay attention:

I am not attacking the poor. there are lots of people for whom it is nearly impossible to save up a nest egg, or even one month's expenses , BUT, the great majority of people in america that are living paycheck to paycheck need not do so.


[ QUOTE ]
It's lovely to think we have, or can have, all the answers wrapped up into a few clever phrases or some kind of tight, cute package, and we can just tie the bow and have a lovely present to gift the world with. The truth is that the world and the people in it are simply much messier and more complex than that, and we do both them and ourselves a disservice by giving in to our ego and pretending any different.

[/ QUOTE ]

reread my post. you are massivly oversimplifying my positions (and, bizzarely, claiming that's exactly what i'm doing).

lemme guess... you're in debt and you don't want to believe it's your fault?

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
it's usually somethng like an injury, layoff, unexpected expense, etc..


[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you cite this as their reason for misfortune, and then go on to say it's their fault because they're irresponsible with money? Some people have no choice.


[/ QUOTE ]


because being irresponsible with your income turns these minor problems into catastrophies. if any of them had saved up even ONE MONTH'S expenses, then they wouldn't be facing eviction, and i wouldn't have to be turing people out on the street, which sucks, believe me. and NOBODY that can afford the rents in the building that i manage has any excuse for not saving money.

[bholdr]

actually, jakethebake is correct. it's not a third, but there are a suprising number of homeless that self-identify as being so by choice, and another large segment that just don't mind it that much. (the great majority of the homeless are physically or mentally handicapped, or havd drug/alcohol problems, however)

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
People make dumb choices. Conceded. And yes, we should all live below our means and save. Agreed. But saying that it should be no problem to cut expenses and/or increase income to do so is absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course it's absurd, i never claimed that it's a cakewalk (for everyone), but it's certinly doable. and i'm talking about climbing out of paycheck-to-paycheck living here, not managing tens of thousands in student loan debt because you chose to get a PHD... generally, to go to a four year state school or CC, including grants and scholarships, one by no means has to aquire an unmanagable ammount of debt, and putting away an extra $50-100/month SHOULD be easy for almost everybody.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that the vast majority of pepole living paycheck-to-paycheck are doing it because they are irresponsible with their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am surprized to see a statement like this from you. Although I would agree that this would apply to a certain percentage of people, I would disagree that it's the vast majority. There are far more people unable to make ends meet as a result of their income. As far as being financially irresponsible, this is not an easy affliction to overcome. I liken it to losing weight or quitting smoking. You are very fortunate to possess the discipline it takes to save money, but for some people this is almost impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry this is rubbish. You are not responsible for your income? If you are not making enough you have to find a way to make more. Get an education second job change careers, learn to win at poker. Not enough income is s sorry excuse.

Also you say that the OP is fortunate to have the discipline to save? Discipline is not a genetic trait. Anyone can develop it. Ninety nine percent of people living paycheck to paycheck have no one to blame but themselves.

[bholdr]

here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2434787&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

and by 'well' i mean the food was healthy, filling, and tasty.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How come I can live comfortably, while saving, and others can't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone's level of comfort is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! But if you're level of comfort exceeds your income, then you need to adjust one or the other or both. Some idiots just refuse to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jake you make a lot of sense.

This is the most interesting thread I have seen in a long time. I come down on the side of personal responsibility but I think I need to allow for a little social inequity.

[The Goober]

Interesting thread. I agree with bholdr's basic premise here. Lots of people insist on living just above their means when they don't have to. A great example is check caching places. Some of these places only give you like 85% of the value of the check. Virtually every bank now has some sort of free checking account with a very low or no minimum. So why would anyone give their money to the check cashing place? Either they're too stupid to open a bank account, or they can't wait the extra day or so that it takes for the check to clear. I find it hard to believe that a significant number of people get paid and absolutely cannot wait a couple days in order to save 15% of their paycheck.

Another problem, I think, is what people have come to consider "necessities". A lot of the posters listed car payments/lease as a standard cost of living. This is ridiculous - nobody needs a new car. If you look around, there are lots running cars that can be had for less than $500. A big part of the problem, I think, is our culture of debt. People are raised thinking that carrying car debt and credit card debt is normal and acceptable. No one ever showed them how much more money they could have if they weren't paying 17% interest on all their credit cards. I think a good part of the blame here lies with our schools.

Finally, this whole debate underscores why we need some sort of universal health insurance. Even people who are responsible and save money could find it all wiped out by one extended hospital stay. Even with health insurance, some insurance still has the insured paying up to 25% out-of-pocket. God forbid you get cancer - that 25% could easily wipe you out. Health care costs are the biggest cause of bankruptcy in this country. Its just embarassing - no other industrialized nation lets [censored] like this happen to its people.

[RunDownHouse]

I don't think you quite understand what check-cashing places are doing.

[Rotating Rabbit]

[ QUOTE ]

It's funny, I go to a rich friend's home and can't get a glass of water, or right in front of you they give you a warm one from the tap while they pour themselves some nice cold bottled water from the fridge. I go to a poor friend's place and they offer everything they have.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is so so true.

Even in cases in remote rural places e.g. in africa/asia where they actually have basically NOTHING, they still offer whatever they can and put so much more effort into being generous.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the posters listed car payments/lease as a standard cost of living. This is ridiculous - nobody needs a new car. If you look around, there are lots running cars that can be had for less than $500. A big part of the problem, I think, is our culture of debt. People are raised thinking that carrying car debt and credit card debt is normal and acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still feel kind of guilty for having bought a 25K car and carrying a $450/mo payment, even though Quicken says 47% of my income is going towards "net savings". The worst part is now I only drive it like 3 days a week.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's funny, I go to a rich friend's home and can't get a glass of water, or right in front of you they give you a warm one from the tap while they pour themselves some nice cold bottled water from the fridge. I go to a poor friend's place and they offer everything they have.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is so so true.

Even in cases in remote rural places e.g. in africa/asia where they actually have basically NOTHING, they still offer whatever they can and put so much more effort into being generous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selective memory. You are far more likely to notice when a rich person is cheap than when a poor person is. And a lot of people that you think are rich are not. They are just big spenders.

[SpearsBritney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that the vast majority of pepole living paycheck-to-paycheck are doing it because they are irresponsible with their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am surprized to see a statement like this from you. Although I would agree that this would apply to a certain percentage of people, I would disagree that it's the vast majority. There are far more people unable to make ends meet as a result of their income. As far as being financially irresponsible, this is not an easy affliction to overcome. I liken it to losing weight or quitting smoking. You are very fortunate to possess the discipline it takes to save money, but for some people this is almost impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry this is rubbish. You are not responsible for your income? If you are not making enough you have to find a way to make more. Get an education second job change careers, learn to win at poker. Not enough income is s sorry excuse.

Also you say that the OP is fortunate to have the discipline to save? Discipline is not a genetic trait. Anyone can develop it. Ninety nine percent of people living paycheck to paycheck have no one to blame but themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you're right! It's so simple. You've single-handedly discovered the secret. You should try and get that published. It would change the world and solve everybody's problems. If everyone could just read this, poverty would be abolished, people would miraculously rewire their brains, change life-time ingrained thinking patterns, get off their asses, and become CEOs of large corporations. Unfortunately, poker would cease to exist because everybody would win. But that's a small price to pay for this utopia you've discovered. Oh man, you are a super genius.

[SpearsBritney]

[ QUOTE ]


I usually spend less than this in a month. I only eat oatmeal with water and raw potatoes with some salt.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO

[toss]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned children as a problem for saving up cash.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you quite understand what check-cashing places are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing this response, I realized you might be right, so I looked into it a bit more. It looks like a standard fee is more like 2%, rather than 15% (I dunno where I heard that number), so I sorta feel like an idiot. I also read that lots of illegal immigrants use check-cashing places because they are afraid to give mainstream banks their information for fear of the INS.

Is this what you meant, or am I missing something else?

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some have it thrust upon them (by earning too little despite mangaging their money well).

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I make a wage that is barely above minimum wage. A waiter at Chili's could likely make more.

How come I can live comfortably, while saving, and others can't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a family?

[RunDownHouse]

Yes.

[RunDownHouse]

Wait, if you mean, "Do you have a wife and children?" then no. I guess you're trying to imply that a majority of poor/homeless have lots of kids, then 1) I'd like to hear something a bit more solid than, "Lots of poor people have kids," and 2) that's also a poor decision in life, right?