2 hands for review

[davidross]

Despite a lot of effort on my part I'm still struggling to get my win rate up to where it should be. I've been playing 5/10 6 max for a bout 4 weeks now to try and get back on a winning track, and while I'm winning steadily it's in the 1 BB/100 hands area right now. What I can't figure out is if I'm not winning enough on my winners, or losing too much on my losers or something else. 2 hands from today where I get lost.

Hand 1.

Only my 2nd orbit. SB I have at 14/35 but BB is unknown.

I open raise from the CO with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB 3 bets and BB cold calls. I call.

Flop Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets, BB calls and I raise. SB calls and now BB comes to life and 3 bets. I call and SB calls again.

Turn 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, and BB checks /images/graemlins/confused.gif

now what, no apparent draws, is this a set looking to check-raise again?

Hand 2

I open raise with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the hi-jack.

BB calls. He has made a lot of speculative raises post flop and seems to play any 2pre-flop.

FLop T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I bet and he calls.

Turn K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet and he check-raises. I 3 bet and he caps.

Now what?

[J.R.]

hand 1- I dunno, the flop 3-bet isn't a draw so I check thru and call a river bet, betting if checked to. I hate having to call the check-raise and its hard to see somebody 3-betting the flop with a worse one pair 3-handed hand so I think a turn-check-raise is likely. I look to showdown.

hand 2- call, I think ther eis little value in a raise and QJ 3-bets

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1.
now what, no apparent draws, is this a set looking to check-raise again?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would bet for value on the turn and if BB again check-raises muck.I put SB on overcards must likely AK or he could have JJ,TT.

You dont tell us much about the BB's prior play.There is a high probability that he may checkraise you on the turn if you bet-I'd put him on a set of eights or deuces or Q8s for top two if he does and muck. But I think you must bet the turn and not give any freecards.IF BB is solid/tricky rather than typically fishy checking could be an option-the good thing about checking the turn is most probably you have the SB drawing very thin to only 2-3 outs.HHmm come to think about it since the bb is most probably drawing so thin checking the turn against all but the more fishy over-aggro types may be the best play...

So yeah I just vacillated on this one ..I'd bet the turn if BB was a fish for value but check behind if he's decent/tricky since there may not be that many freecards that will hurt you.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet for value on the turn and if BB again check-raises muck

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a tough muck for me, i don't give a guy apparently loose enough to have each of the 2 pair combos credit for a set here that much.

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
Now what?


[/ QUOTE ]
what do you mean "now what?"What are the options here?

You said he plays fast the turn checkraise is one thing but the cap more likely means more than a speculative redraw scenario-he must likely floppped a small set or turned the straight.

Are you thinking about actually folding? Not me ..flat call the river.Your hand will better more times than you expect I bet.

You've been to war just pay him off-folding is catastrophic since you said he plays fast.

[lostinthought]

Hand 1 -

This come to life 3 bet is typically better than a top pair hand, because his come to life raise makes it only 1 more SB to you. There's no way when the action on the flop that you will raise and fold for one more here, esp since SB will most likely not re-raise. If I have the player labeled as a donkey, I might even-re-raise and try to get the SB out since I will probably take this hand to the river against a donkey.

However, against an unknown I think it's safe to think you are behind more often than not, and I prefer to check through, and call a river bet.

[lostinthought]

Hand 2 -

I think at least a river call is in order here, ie. don't think about folding. 'now what' leaves a lot of options-

He bets when a K or T comes on the river - obvious raise
He bets when a diamond comes - call
He bets when I rag cames - call

He checks when a K or T comes - obvious bet
He checks when a diamond comes - tough - I think I check
He checks when a rag comes - I bet for value

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
and I doubt he raises the worse hands if you lead (maybe so, its hard to tell what your read means- but after a turn cap you're leading into him shows a lot of strength). if he's bluffing, a check-call is good too.


[/ QUOTE ]

he wont be leading into him on the river since he's last to act.

An interesting question is if checked to on the river should you bet this hand for value on the end? I'd probably restrain myself and just check it thru if he checked the river.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and I doubt he raises the worse hands if you lead (maybe so, its hard to tell what your read means- but after a turn cap you're leading into him shows a lot of strength). if he's bluffing, a check-call is good too.


[/ QUOTE ]

he wont be leading into him on the river since he's last to act.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what Hi-Jack means, but how does he check-raise the turn last to act?

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
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I would bet for value on the turn and if BB again check-raises muck


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that's a tough muck for me, i don't give a guy apparently loose enough to have each of the 2 pair combos credit for a set here that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point..Very close .But I think more times than not unless this player has shown an inordinate amount of trickiness in prior play my hand hits the muck.

[davidross]

I posted these two hands because they are both so indicative of what seems to keep happening to me lately. I'm glad to hear that most of you think and do what I did,I can't be that far from correct play.

Hand 1 the jump to life screamed of a set to me, so when he checked the turn to me I checked too, intending to call a river bet. THe river was checked as well and I bet, he called with 98o ?? So it looks like I missed 1 or maybe even 2 bets depending on SB's play. I just couldn't see myself folding to the turn check-raise so I played it safe.

Hand 2, again the 4 bet screamed of QJ, so do I pay off 2 more big bets here. I've seen so many worse 2 pairs make this play that I just couldn't see myself foldeing, plus I had outs so I called him down and he had the straight. Again, I'm glad to hear everyone else seems to be paying off here.

[Alobar]

hand 1, I bet...and prolly toss to a c/r, and then depending, might check behind on the river? Was the SB 35/14? not sure how someone could be 14/35. 3.5 maybe? Im asking because I cap this PF sometimes in this spot

Hand 2 after he caps, I just call down. But im def 3 betting his c/r.

[bobbyi]

On hand 2, I think anything other calling down (assuming you don't help on the river) is bad. Up to this point, you have played the hand well.

[Michael Davis]

On hand #1 I think you have to bet the turn. If this were somehow the last street it might be different. I think there's a decent but not certain chance you're getting checkraised again, but I'm putting in one more bet in this pot anyways so I'd fire and fold if I get popped.

Hand 2 I think is fine and given the description of your opponent you must calldown.

-Michael

[BK_]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate having to call the check-raise


[/ QUOTE ]

you dont have to call a turn c/r.

imo bet the turn in the first hand, fold to a c/r, and fold to a river bet. betting the turn and checking the river behind is probably slightly superior to calling a bet on the river since you might get an extra bet out of the 3rd player

[arkady]

Not sure why no one suggested this, but in hand 1, bet the turn and fold to a raise. It is hard to imagine someone to continue being wacky on the turn unless they have a monster.

Hand 2, what I will do sometimes is call the turn raise. Then raise the river. That way if the river fills up, you can keep going, but if he 3-bets, that means you are in serious trouble and can probably fold. You can't fold to his turn cap, because you still might be ahead and you got out. You can fold to a river 3-bet, because an inferior 2pair will only call a raise, or alternatively you can just call.

Overall I would say you mixed up your aggression. You played hand 1 too passively and hand 2 too aggressively. Granted you had a weaker/stronger hand respectively, but the behavior of the villains is more important. Lastly, I would not be so quick about feeling good about your play *just* because some people agreed with it. Sadly this is not an indication of perfection.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont have to call a turn c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do getting at least 12-1 if I'm counting right v. a seemingly suspicous line, so that is why I kinda want to check.

[deepsquat]

Hand 1- Looks like BB has a set of 2's or maybe 8's and was just calling to keep you in the hand, this is often the case ive found.

Hand- 2 looks lik JQ, id check/call river

[PokerDonkey]

I generally don't like to beat a dead horse in these comment/hand reviews, but one issue hasn't been addressed in the first hand.

LOL, it wasn't a mis-click was it dood?

1. check down if no improvement. Call/bet with any improvement.

2. Tough to call the river, but there is a lot of commited money with a player you are suspicious of. If you call and win, all the better...but if you call and lose, you can probably bet that you will benefit from further play according to this previous hand.

--Sooo, Soooo, Soooah...Donikified!!!

[LImitPlayer]

How come your not playing 15-30 anymore?

Why and when did you step down to 5-10 6 max?

Just curious