Flop set, Ace hits turn, what next??

[Wes ManTooth]

SNG NL, (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t800)
MP1 (t770)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t30</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t30.

Turn: (t110) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

I am first to act what would you do? discuss

I will have another question shortly, explaining my actions and the river.

[citanul]

with a crowd that large, i'd have led the flop, since as doyle says, leading out with a set gives you the best chances to get all in on the flop with the likely best hand.

with the ace coming on the turn first to act, having led the flop, leading the turn again is nice, as someone who called you with an ace on the flop will often raise you here. checkraising becomes less viable as you move up in stakes i find. and, someone without an ace will sometimes (rarely i guess) bluff raise you here.

having not led, it gets trickier, because you betting out suddently looks like you were trying to catch the ace, and did. i'd probably still lead out anyway, the pot is still small, and your job is thus to make it big, so that when you win it, you'll be happier than if it was small.

citanul

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]

with the ace coming on the turn first to act, having led the flop, leading the turn again is nice, as someone who called you with an ace on the flop will often raise you here. checkraising becomes less viable as you move up in stakes i find. and, someone without an ace will sometimes (rarely i guess) bluff raise you here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming I led the flop, what size bet would you lead the turn with? a weak beat? strong? what percentage of the pot would you consider beating?

Thanks for your input

[citanul]

if i'd led the flop, it would have been most likely for 50. with one caller, i'd then have a pot of 150, and my opponent covered, him with about 700 behind.

when leading the flop, i'd lead probably just about 100, maybe 125. i wouldn't want to overbet the flop in any way here. part of the idea is to make it look like a value bet, but also look like a bet you could fold if you were raised, and look well, the same as all your other bets. i might even bet about 75. from there you can choose your line if raised. depending on the raise size, some people like to try to get in a stupid sized raise less than all in, go straight all in, or try to call and then lead the river.

personally i like the bet of about 100 for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that when the guy raises to 300, he's usually just screwed. if the guy had fewer chips, say, 500, this would be even better, especially as an opportunity to throw a weak lead out there, since your opponent will often try to push you off a pot while drawing dead.

as i have mentioned before, having your opponent try to push you off a pot while they are drawing dead (and apparently it's not the bubble in the mirage 2000 event) is basically my favorite moment in poker. especially in spots like these when you know for sure that they are trying to make a move, because that's what you told them to do.

citanul

ps: i didn't make it as clear as it could be, but the strategy for flopping a set on a non-scary board clearly varies greatly based on preflop action, position, stack depths, and number of opponents, and other stuff.

[flo]

I lead the flop and check the turn, because i had a good hand on the flop but i don't like the ace. Someone with a strong ace will bet into you, maybe even someone with a weak ace or with no ace at all. I move if that happens.

[curtains]

I just hate the ultra slowplaying on the flop. It's a perfect way to make as little as possible in such a hand IMO.

[Newt_Buggs]

if you do check this flop, be prepared to check raise it (I wouldn't cr too much here though since MP1 looks really weak

[Degen]

raise the flop

bet the turn after raising the flop

if you decide to still play the flop slow, i would check raise the turn.



Andre

[utmt40]

If you are check raising the flop, how much are you going to raise then?

[curtains]

I definitely like betting out on this flop here.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]

ps: i didn't make it as clear as it could be, but the strategy for flopping a set on a non-scary board clearly varies greatly based on preflop action, position, stack depths, and number of opponents, and other stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all the comments, this is partly what i was putting into consideration.

I will continue with the hand that played out...
Since I did check call the flop and since an Ace hit the turn...
(I know you may not like this) but I decided to check the turn. I was hoping that villian, will bet out again, But I also planned ahead of MAYBE even checking on whatever came on the river, regardless if he bet or folded. Therefore giving the villian two chances to attempt to steal the pot.

Villian decided check the turn.

River was the Queen (Hearts) so the backdoor flush draw got there and also put up straight possiblities. From his flop bet I put him on he either had an overpair and/or top pair or 2 pair. So I was not worried about him having a straight. Though the flush did get there I was not concerned about this either, for a number of reasons, which would be a long discussion in its self (I will try not to go off topic).

Before I post the final results, I am curious on what you would now do?
On the river would you check? bet? how much would you bet even though the pot size is 110 and unfortunately relatively small?

Any comments?

[zambonidrivr]

i would lead with a bet that does not allow some complete shmuck to draw to a flush

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
i would lead with a bet that does not allow some complete shmuck to draw to a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Assumed that you did check the turn, what play would you take if you were first to act on the river and the draw did hit??
refer to my previous post.

Any comments are welcomed and appreciated.
Thanks again

[nokona13]

Curtains, I also tend to hate slowplaying so much, unless you have quads with like 5 to act after you or something. In an effort to maintain consistency with my continuation bets and TPTK bets I generally lead sets, but I think maybe I've been losing value in some situations. What kind of situation (# left to act after you, their stack sizes, your stack size) would you ever try say a check/call flop, lead turn line? Obviously if you can check/raise all in without an overbet against an aggressive opponent, that's a good idea. But any other less obvious situations. Do you ever resort to the check/call flop check/raise turn line?

[citanul]

this is an incredibly vague question. for that, i hate you.

to answer your question though:

there's lots of reasons to go with a line like the one you described. one would be because another player is the aggressor in the pot with several opponents. large pots, etc. on a board that is very likely to have hit someone, but not necessarilly in a draw manner, i'd check to a crowd. when the pot is already big, basically, or you have really good reasons to believe it's the best way to get money in there. etc, etc, etc.

yah, that's the problem with vague questions.

seeking to confine this to like, please provide me a chart of relevent numbers so i can play from that, is a bad way of going about things.

citanul

[nokona13]

Okay, for an example, say normal 800 chip game on Party, three limpers and you check the BB with 77. Flop comes Q74r. You don't read any of your opponents as very aggressive. Is this an obvious lead for say 3/4 of the pot? Or maybe a check-call because there's three left who came in voluntarily? Say you lead for 3/4 pot and get a call from MP. Turn is T, putting two to a flush on board, not of the same suit as queen. Say you've both got 8-10 times the pot left. Do you lead again, hoping AQ/KQ thinks he's still good, or villian has QT? Try a semi-transparent c/r that probably stops action?

[wh1t3bread]

Since I smell a bad beat it sucks that he had KJ.

P.S. Don't slow play flopped sets.

[AliasMrJones]

Bet the flop, something in the 30-40 range and lead the turn with a similar size bet relative to the pot. With that many people, you're likely to get raised by someone with T-good kicker on the flop and if not, it will be hard for someone to put you on an A on the turn and you may get someone with an A raising you on the turn. The way you played it I think it is now going to be hard to make a lot of money most of the time.

Given the way you played it I think I'd check the turn and hope he bets, then check-raise. If the checks the turn, bet something in the 50 range and hope he calls.

[curtains]

I want to bet now because I see no assurance that anyone else will bet. If there was a preflop raiser from late position, checking seems better to me, although I still might bet sometimes.
Also I want to start building the pot on the flop, as this is where people are most apt to gamble with hands like top pair. Once the turn comes they often play their hands more cautiously IMO, and now you hvae only two streets to extract bets from them instead of three, in a situation where your bets will get exponentially higher. So if some bozo has top pair on the flop, you might make like 60 on the flop, 150 on the turn and 300 on the river. If you check the flop and then just bet turn+river against this guy, you might just make 60+150.

Of course good things can happen from checking too (Like someone might bet the flop), but I find that that betting out in spots like this against poor players is usually much more profitable than checking. Also a check raise shows immense strength whereas a normal bet doesn't. They will call with weaker hands IMO if you bet out as opposed to check raising. If someone does bet, I think check calling is insane. Check calling for that 30 chip bet is pretty poor strategy.

Your opponent has shown that he isnt that much in love with his hand, people give huge amount of respect to turn check raises, thus meaning he might toss a hand that he would have played with you on the flop, and your opponent may feel no desire to fire away again once he got a flop caller. If you put your opponent on something like top pair, you absolutely must try to get value from him immediately.

All of this applies to games where the opponents are weaker, like $109 or $55 buyin sit and gos and lower. I would bet this flop in basically every game, but I think it's absolutely clear against weak opponents. There are also some good things about betting out against slightly stronger opponents as they often read your flop bet for weakness, and discount super strong hands like sets because they expect that you would have "slowplayed" them.

(Also note that I'm pretty sure you got the pot size wrong for the flop...it should be 75, not 50.)

[Matt R.]

I know everyone so far is advocating leading on the flop, but I personally prefer a check/call here as you did. When the flop comes 10 high and is a rainbow, I prefer to give a free card to the multiple players in the pot hoping they'll catch an A, K, or maybe 2 pair (in which case you can usually get their stack if they catch 2 pair). I like leading out in a mult-way pot if an A or K is on the flop, hoping for a raise or at least multiple callers to build the pot. I doubt leading out here would net more chips because you'd likely get everyone to fold except MP1, and then when you bet that turn he'll fold. You just got unlucky here in the sense that no one caught anything they were willing to pay you off with.

[Matt R.]

Forgot to respond to your original question about the turn. I think I would continue the slowplay here and check the turn and make a smallish raise if he bets, then lead the river. Probably won't get you much, but I don't think any line would in this instance. A lot of this would depend on the buy-in as well, but this would be my default way to play it I think.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
but I personally prefer a check/call here as you did. When the flop comes 10 high and is a rainbow, I prefer to give a free card to the multiple players in the pot hoping they'll catch an A, K, or maybe 2 pair

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one reason why i check/call the flop, Ten high flop may not get action if I bet out.

Any thoughts for action I should take on the river?

[Degen]

zee pot

i actually hadn't payed enuff attention to positions...i too would bet the flop (not check raise) then bet the turn.


Andre

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I smell a bad beat it sucks that he had KJ.

P.S. Don't slow play flopped sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt villian would bet out on the flop with 2 over cards, even more so with with 5 people at this point in this hand.

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since I smell a bad beat it sucks that he had KJ.

P.S. Don't slow play flopped sets.

[/ QUOTE ]


I doubt villian would bet out on the flop with 2 over cards, even more so with with 5 people at this point in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different hand then the one you im'd me the other day then?

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all the comments, this is partly what i was putting into consideration.

I will continue with the hand that played out...
Since I did check call the flop and since an Ace hit the turn...
(I know you may not like this) but I decided to check the turn. I was hoping that villian, will bet out again, But I also planned ahead of MAYBE even checking on whatever came on the river, regardless if he bet or folded. Therefore giving the villian two chances to attempt to steal the pot.

Villian decided check the turn.

River was the Queen (Hearts) so the backdoor flush draw got there and also put up straight possiblities. From his flop bet I put him on he either had an overpair and/or top pair or 2 pair. So I was not worried about him having a straight. Though the flush did get there I was not concerned about this either, for a number of reasons, which would be a long discussion in its self (I will try not to go off topic).

Before I post the final results, I am curious how you would act on the river now, do?
On the river would you check? bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Continueing with this hand, I appreciate the comments about how you would play the flop and the turn.

Now how would you play the river had this hand played out to this point?

[Matt R.]

Going with my line, if he checks behind on the turn I would just lead out on the river with a value bet that you think he'd call. I usually default to ~1/2 the pot on the river with no reads (and the pot size as it is) -- and it doesn't appear that he likes his hand very much. With a read though, you could get tricky (e.g. if he likes to bluff a lot or whatever). It sucks when you only win ~100 chips with a flopped set, but it happens, and this looks like a case when you aren't going to get much more than that.