Dumb call?

[11t]

This is a 15+1 on Stars, I am seen as very loose and aggressive

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3505)
CO (t2430)
Hero (t1935)
SB (t2700)
BB (t1470)
UTG (t1460)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1470</font>, Hero calls t1020.

[jcm4ccc]

yes

[Unarmed]

I muck the hand to begin with, but if you force me to raise, (and I would have made it 375) then I definitely fold to the push.

[11t]

Lets say the range of the villain is any 2, is it still a dumb call?

[beeyjay]

raise less and fold when he pushes.

[kyro]

I like the initial raise, but you have to fold this to the all in. You haven't given us any reason to think BB is doing this with any two, so what exactly are you hoping he has?

[pooh74]

bad bad bad

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the initial raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold this without a second thought. I'm curious to hear what other posters' views are on what do do in this situation with &gt;12BB and a marginal hand on the button. I generally play pretty tight when &gt;10BB late, but perhaps I'm missing some value.

[GoldenHorde]

If you are seen as loose and aggressive and you are aware of this putting in a quarter of your stack on a button raise without a premium hand is a bad idea.

Fold/Fold

[kyro]

You've likely got the best hand. You have great position. You have a large enough stack to raise and get away from if necessary. Why would you fold?

[snap]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the initial raise, but you have to fold this to the all in. You haven't given us any reason to think BB is doing this with any two, so what exactly are you hoping he has?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's to much that has you beat, fold.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I muck the hand to begin with, but if you force me to raise, (and I would have made it 375) then I definitely fold to the push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mucking preflop is just wrong. Opening allin is better. I often open allin here instead of a medium raise because...a smaller raise may encourage weak pairs and hands like KQ to gamble with you. In a sit + go format, you usually don't want to gamble against such hands. Also moving allin convinces hands like A9 to fold sometimes and so on, whereas raising to 450 convinces hands like KJ to make a move on you!

But okay, the one thing that's clear is that folding is simply wrong.

[flo]

Not as dumb as if his range were QQ+.

[11t]

The reason I posted this hand is because I would never call normally, but with my table image (very aggressive) I felt that me raising from the button was an obvious steal. In the villains mind I had any two cards. He also must have known that to call his push I would need a hand since it was for my entire stack.

Anyways I was right and he showed k3os and I turned the nuts. I was just wondering if anybody else saw where I was coming from.

[nokona13]

I can see this sometimes. If I've been very aggressive, maybe starting to get comments in the chat or something, and I raise with a decent ace like this, I'll sometimes call if I think villains range has expanded to include any king, good queens, etc. I think open-pushing with your stack is probably better. You're right at the tough spot with like 12-13 BB, where it feels a little wrong to push, but it feels wrong to me to raise 25% and then fold. I think you'd rather push here and have K3 fold. I haven't run the numbers though...

[sofere]

Opening all-in is bad and is just as bad as folding IMO. With the deep stacks on stars, you have to make these raises with position pretty frequently. Unless you've been constantly attacking this guy or he's really LAG, he'll fold more often than not. If he pushes, I've gotta believe he's got some kinda hand and I don't wanna risk being crippled over it. If he calls, you'll have a difficult decision but I still think it'll be less risky than just pushing PF.

Pushing all-in straight away is waaaaay too much risk for my taste with those stacks.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I muck the hand to begin with, but if you force me to raise, (and I would have made it 375) then I definitely fold to the push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mucking preflop is just wrong. Opening allin is better. I often open allin here instead of a medium raise because...a smaller raise may encourage weak pairs and hands like KQ to gamble with you. In a sit + go format, you usually don't want to gamble against such hands. Also moving allin convinces hands like A9 to fold sometimes and so on, whereas raising to 450 convinces hands like KJ to make a move on you!

But okay, the one thing that's clear is that folding is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains,

I hate raising anything but all-in here as well. It looks too much like a steal and encourages the BB to play back at you. Villain has 12BB here. Is there any point above 12BB where you just fold the A8? Having a big stack gives you the luxury to sit back and watch the fireworks. Alternatively you can enter the frenzy.

Is there a point where the former is preferred over the latter or are you shipping this in regardless of how big your stack is? It seems to me that there should be a point where you just don't need to bother, i.e.: your big stack gives you the luxury of chilling out a bit.

Thoughts?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening all-in is bad and is just as bad as folding IMO. With the deep stacks on stars, you have to make these raises with position pretty frequently. Unless you've been constantly attacking this guy or he's really LAG, he'll fold more often than not. If he pushes, I've gotta believe he's got some kinda hand and I don't wanna risk being crippled over it. If he calls, you'll have a difficult decision but I still think it'll be less risky than just pushing PF.

Pushing all-in straight away is waaaaay too much risk for my taste with those stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]


You are wrong. Opening allin is clearly + chip EV. Folding sure as hell isn't. It's possible raising less than allin is preferable in some games, however folding is clearly worse than moving allin.

[11t]

It was a turbo tournament, deep stacks dont last too long

[curtains]

btw one key reason why I don't like making a normal raise to 400 is because of the BB's stack size. I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a normal raise if they had 1900 in chips, however here you are getting into that gray area where if you are reraised you might want to call. (The guy had K3o for christsakes, some people are simply going to make moves there when you make a smallish raise.)

With the BB having about 1900 chips, I like raising to 400 because:

1. It's easier to fold if your opponent raises you
2. It's less likely your opponent will raise you without a real hand because they are less "desperate" and getting less risk/reward ratio.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I posted this hand is because I would never call normally, but with my table image (very aggressive) I felt that me raising from the button was an obvious steal. In the villains mind I had any two cards. He also must have known that to call his push I would need a hand since it was for my entire stack.

Anyways I was right and he showed k3os and I turned the nuts. I was just wondering if anybody else saw where I was coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]
nice call, but I hope that this shows that you should have just pushed to begin with. You definitly don't want to be trying to rap w A7s or encouraging people to play back at you. pushing is +EV, so I'm probably pushing this then cooling off for a little bit.