QJo - marginal 2nd pair on A high flop. what's your plan and why?

[Isura]

Table is generally loose/passive (see preflop).

Note that this is 6 max, so the players will be generally be even a bit looser than .5/1. What's your plan for the flop, the turn? I really wasn't sure about this hand. And it reminded me of a typical .5/1 hand.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[davelin]

Are you calling the river? I play this the same on the flop and turn.

[deception5]

I like the way this hand played out. But how would you play it if BB bet out and had a few callers? Call and see what happens on the turn?

[MrWookie47]

Nice hand. Whether or not you call a river bet depends on reads, I guess.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
But how would you play it if BB bet out and had a few callers? Call and see what happens on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll let you guys talk about that. I'm not really sure myself, but probably peel if I'm getting 9 to 1 or better.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you calling the river? I play this the same on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mention in the OP that button was fishy, and liked to make weird bluffs when others show weakness. So I'm calling a river bet from button, but folding if BB bets out (no matter what button does).

[kapw7]

The flop raise is textbook material I guess. After BB cold calls our hand is not that strong. He might have a draw but he might have an ace. I would check the turn and fold to a bet from BB but maybe raise a bet from the button (his flop bet might be a steal attempt) to charge BB's drawing hand. No call. Generally, without reads I'd rather fold.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you calling the river? I play this the same on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mention in the OP that button was fishy, and liked to make weird bluffs when others show weakness. So I'm calling a river bet from button, but folding if BB bets out (no matter what button does).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how you can possibly check-fold this river the way the hand was played. You've either got to bet and fold to a raise, or check/call one. You'll be getting 10:1 or 11:1 and you're going to see a worse middle pair bet here at least that often.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is textbook material I guess. After BB cold calls our hand is not that strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB could easily have 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
He might have a draw but he might have an ace. I would check the turn and fold to a bet from BB but maybe raise a bet from the button (his flop bet might be a steal attempt) to charge BB's drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you raise this flop, you have to bet the turn. If you're subsequently going to check-fold the turn, you might as well fold the flop.

Putting BB on a drawing hand and then making a play that potentially offers him a free card (especially likely if you put Button on a flop bluff) is icky.

[Fantam]

I havent played any 6(max) yet, so its hard for me to judge.

The button could initially been betting with almost anything and you raised to improve your chances of winning. After that you called your marginal hand down, which seemed ok to me.

[johnc]

I see him betting a weak ace on the flop or betting the ace hitting the board with something marginal, ie weak queen, 3s or a draw. Either way, your flop raise seems to have slowed him down and he's gone into call mode. I'd throw in a river bet given the 9:1 odds and the decent chance your ahead.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]

BB could easily have 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
So? I already said that


[ QUOTE ]
Once you raise this flop, you have to bet the turn. If you're subsequently going to check-fold the turn, you might as well fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a mistake. I don't have to bet the turn. I raised the flop not b/c I had the best hand but b/c I was trying to go HU with thebutton. Middle pair - weak kicker is not the best hand against 2 opponents OOP.

[ QUOTE ]
Putting BB on a drawing hand and then making a play that potentially offers him a free card (especially likely if you put Button on a flop bluff) is icky.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB can also have an Ace. Anyway I don't mind giving him a free card b/c I am not likely to be ahead. In fact I am likely to have a drawing hand as well. And I can fold easier to a bet from BB if a heart comes on the river.

[KaiShin]

I'd play this exactly the same.

My plan for the river would be check/call, fold for 2. If Button leads the river, maybe I'd raise it to prevent BB from overcalling, but I wouldn't do that too often.

[AmarilloJim1]

Personally, I wouldn't have gotten involved in that hand post flop. I would've folded. With that many limpers...could lead to trouble.

[C-Dog]

I have been playing a lot of 1/2 (6 Max) lately, and I would have bet out at the flop, and then bet every single street. Most of the time, I think I would take this down, people call with the worst stuff.

C-Dog

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised the flop not b/c I had the best hand but b/c I was trying to go HU with thebutton

[/ QUOTE ]

You should raise this flop precisely because, given the action, you are very likely to have the best hand here. Button will bet any variety of holdings in this spot, and if BB had top pair he would likely have led the flop already.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I wouldn't have gotten involved in that hand post flop. I would've folded. With that many limpers...could lead to trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should be more than willing to pay .5SB to see a flop with this hand in an unraised pot.

[Bradyams]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I wouldn't have gotten involved in that hand post flop. I would've folded. With that many limpers...could lead to trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never played 6max then. Seeing a showdown with this hand will pay off in the long run because you're going to see bottom pairs, king-highs, missed draws, and missed pocket pairs A LOT here.

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing a lot of 1/2 (6 Max) lately, and I would have bet out at the flop, and then bet every single street. Most of the time, I think I would take this down, people call with the worst stuff.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it sounds like he had a pretty solid read. You surely want to check-raise a bettor in late position to protect your hand. If you have a good read that Button is going to take a stab at this pot, then the check-raise is perfect. If you have no reads on the Button (or the game is generally passive) then I agree with what you said. I am not a 6-max player, however, so take this with a grain of salt.

Nak

[Buckmulligan]

I think the flop check/raise and turn lead is fine. Good check on the river. You could just as well make a case for calling the flop bet, too, though.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing a lot of 1/2 (6 Max) lately, and I would have bet out at the flop, and then bet every single street. Most of the time, I think I would take this down, people call with the worst stuff.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is pretty bad IMO. It's probably the worst of our 4 options on the flop.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you calling the river? I play this the same on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mention in the OP that button was fishy, and liked to make weird bluffs when others show weakness. So I'm calling a river bet from button, but folding if BB bets out (no matter what button does).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how you can possibly check-fold this river the way the hand was played. You've either got to bet and fold to a raise, or check/call one. You'll be getting 10:1 or 11:1 and you're going to see a worse middle pair bet here at least that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree now. I can't fold this river for 1BB even if BB bets. I'm still not sure about leading or check/calling, it seems close.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree now. I can't fold this river for 1BB even if BB bets. I'm still not sure about leading or check/calling, it seems close.

[/ QUOTE ]

With your read on button I think I like checking to induce a bluff here, since I'd like to see the showdown and button will probably fold a worse hand and might bluff a better one. Also any draw BB was on has missed, so he's most likely folding to your bet, and given his passivity so far he'll probably check behind if he does actually have a better hand.

[C-Dog]

I don't see how Betting is the worst option. He doesn't mention any reads at all, and it nearly got checked through on the flop. I guess if you know the button will bet if checked to, then the c/r is better than betting. But if he checks it, then you just gave a free card to everyone. That is the worst thing that could happen. You flopped middle Pair (decent kicker) in a loose 6 handed game, you are seeing the showdown with this hand like 90% of the time. Why give free cards, at least if you bet you give someone the chance to let you know your hand is no good.

C-Dog

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how Betting is the worst option. He doesn't mention any reads at all, and it nearly got checked through on the flop. I guess if you know the button will bet if checked to, then the c/r is better than betting. But if he checks it, then you just gave a free card to everyone. That is the worst thing that could happen. You flopped middle Pair (decent kicker) in a loose 6 handed game, you are seeing the showdown with this hand like 90% of the time. Why give free cards, at least if you bet you give someone the chance to let you know your hand is no good.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the range of hands that 5 other players could have. I agree my hand is fairly strong, but not strong enough to bet out for value and give all kinds of worst hands correct odds to call. Anyone with any decent draw will not be making a mistake by calling the flop for 1 bet. My hand is vulnerable enough that it's necesssary to risk getting this checked through in order to try to protect my hand and force worst hands to make a mistake by calling 2 cold. But getting it checked through isn't the worst thing either for several reasons:

1) I get a free card when I'm behind.
2) If a blank falls on the turn, my equity has just gone up a lot. I can now lead the turn for value here, and force worst hands to fold or call with probably insufficient odds (except a flush draw). By drawing hands I don't just mean straights and flushes, bottom pair is a drawing hand for these donks at 1/2.
3) If the bet comes earlier than the button, I can call with several other callers getting decent odds on my draw to 2 pair or trips.
4) If the turn is another bad card, I can reevaluate and see the action behind me. The pot won't be very big either if the flop is checked through, so it's fine letting go of this hand on the turn if I look beat. Also note that even if the turn is bad AND I'm still ahead, I still could face a slew of redraws.

Well maybe betting out isn't the worst, but only folding is worse IMO.