standard situaton poll, without a poll.

[citanul]

so here's something that happens all the time:

9 handed, 50/100

3 or 4 folds to you (if it changes your decision, write about both) you have one of 88, 99, or TT, if you want to write about them as different, do so. all players have even stacks. (say those stacks are 1100.)

your action?

for a variation, say you have 1100, as do most players, though the people who folded already have randomish stacks to make the numbers behind you possible. behind you there are 2 guys with 400ish and two guys with 1800ish. your action?

citanul

[adanthar]

Probably push all 3. I might make a standard raise if the table texture looks like I'll get away with it.

If there's some short stacked donkey itching to push behind me I'm definitely standard raising, hopefully to 1/2 his stack minus 1 chip.

[beeyjay]

I think this would have been a push for me before but lately I've been folding a lot more in this situation. I suppose with 4 folds to me and 10s in my hand I would push but other than that I think I would fold often and wait til I had position with closer to any two. Then again I'm playing right now and this is an interesting situation that I would like to think over when I can give it my full attention.

[citanul]

nice! two posts and debate already!

btw, i forgot to add, if it changes anything for you to have this be a 800 chip game vs a 1000 chip game, that should be taken into account, or discussed, or something.

citanul

[Winwood]

Good question. It does happen all the time and I have no idea if the approach below right, but here it is anyway.

Even stacks, 4 fold, I have 88,99,TT:

I raise 3 or 3.5 x BB hoping to take it down right there. If someone reraises all in I probably fold, unless I know raiser to be unreliable. Then again maybe I call. Damn, I don't know.

Uneven stacks, 4 fold, behind me a 2x400 and 2x1800

Raise to 400. Happy if the short stacks call. Again though, if reraised all in I don't know.

So just how much does that suck?

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this would have been a push for me before but lately I've been folding a lot more in this situation. I suppose with 4 folds to me and 10s in my hand I would push but other than that I think I would fold often and wait til I had position with closer to any two. Then again I'm playing right now and this is an interesting situation that I would like to think over when I can give it my full attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please explain the rationale behind folding 99 in this situation?

[rickr]

Still 9 handed, I'm making a standard raise, hoping to A.) induce action. I would love to see 2 or 3 pushes behind me so I can dump and watch. B.) Steal the blinds. or C.) Read dependant whether I call a reraise or not. One thought is with this many left something has to give or it's going to be a crapshoot anyway. That's if the table was really tight and wasn't loosening up. If you were starting to see the table going into panic mode, be quick to dump if the action starts. There are better hands. That's for 88, 99, TT I think I raise with every intention of calling a push from either the SB or BB.

My 2 cents, for what their worth,
Rick

[MSUcougar]

[ QUOTE ]
Still 9 handed, I'm making a standard raise, hoping to A.) induce action. I would love to see 2 or 3 pushes behind me so I can dump and watch.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense. Why would you want this?

For me, with 1100 I probably make a standard raise with 88-TT and call/fold to a push based on the numbers I have on the villain. I probably call a push every time with TT.

With 800 here I probably push preflop.

Alot depends on what I perceive my table image is at the time.

[Big Limpin']

Limp. Expect to be folding flop for t100 loss. Expect to be continuing if flopping set, 3 unders, or if weakies "ask" me to take the pot from them when they dont flop top pair.

<88...fold
>TT...raise

[adanthar]

Raising and then folding to a push is pretty bad. I refer you to my 'I'm only a coinflip so I fold' post; you're going to be getting almost 2:1 on a call and they are pushing with a lot more than seven hands. You might be able to find a fold with a 66, but not nines or tens and probably not eights unless you have an excellent read.

That's in a 1000 chip game. If you raise/fold in an 800 chip game with 900 behind, reread whichever book you have that tells you about pot odds.

Also, there's no shame in occasionally limping or folding an 88 UTG, but in MP, I'd never do this.

[beeyjay]

I think its just more likely that you're 50/50 with somebody if you have 99 instead of 1010. I mean I guess I would sometimes push 99 but with 9 left somebody's startin to get antsy and gonna call you with overcards. The higher your pair the better chance you have them owned. I also am not all that stoked about 150 in blinds here. wait til they get up to 200 and youre in the sb or button and just push with without looking and i think i like that idea better. However, if i'm down around 800 chips or something here I would probably push any of these pairs probably from any position. With over 1000 though and the blinds this low I think it might be slightly +ev but I think you could wait and find a better spot.

I guess everything I've said is mostly speaking of the 55s as thats where I have the most experience. In the 800 chip games if I had 1100 chips I would proabbly be more prone to pass here as that makes everybody else that much more desperate and they would probably have lower calling standards to boot.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its just more likely that you're 50/50 with somebody if you have 99 instead of 1010.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when they push you are getting 2:1 on your flip.

[beeyjay]

I don't dislike this idea, but I tend to not limp for 100 very often. maybe thats just me.

[beeyjay]

I'm saying fold though. If I made a 2.5-3.5 bb raise I would call a push without thinking about it.

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
Still 9 handed, I'm making a standard raise, hoping to A.) induce action. I would love to see 2 or 3 pushes behind me so I can dump and watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your "standard raise" here, 300? So you're saying that after betting more than 25% of your stack, you'd be happy to be pushed out of the hand, so you could sit back and watch the showdown? On the bubble, maybe, but we're 9 handed here.

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still 9 handed, I'm making a standard raise, hoping to A.) induce action. I would love to see 2 or 3 pushes behind me so I can dump and watch.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense. Why would you want this?


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's rare that you will have 9 players with no short stack left at 50/100. This table has got to be very tight. If that's the case there is a good chance that you will simply steal the blinds with a raise with any 2. Now have you ever noticed that it seems like it only takes one action to cause a table to turn 180 degrees. If this is the action that causes it, I'll give up the 300 chips to get it started. So many times I've seen where at about this point, some MP player raises and 4 people will reraise and get themselves all in. And it seems like one or two hands later your sitting at the bubble. I'm not playing 88,99, or TT against multiple all-ins, but I wouldn't cry if the next guy to act pushed and 2 or 3 called his push. I'd get out of the way and watch. If 2 or 3 flat called and BB pushed, I'd be sandwiched, and would lay it down. But if he pushed and it was folded back to me, I'd take the coin toss. Did I make sense?

Later,
Rick

[GoldenHorde]

Push, probably play AQ AK the same way.

[the shadow]

To answer your question with a question, how about this?

9 handed, 50/100
roughly even stacks, 1000 chip game
3 or 4 folds
MP pushes
folds to you on the button

1. What range do you put villian on?

2. What's your range to call?

To get the discussion going, here're my thoughts for no. 1: 99-QQ, AQs+, AQo+. If villian has AA or KK at MP, I think it's 50% he pushes, 50% he raises, so I'd include those hands in the pushing range, but underweight their probability.

The Shadow

[citanul]

hoo hah, this is intersting stuff, unfortunately, although this question is interesting and worthwhile, it is not the question i meant to post!!!

same question, blinds are 25/50 was the actual question that i had been discussing with a friend. may be considered a less interesting question than the first one, but personally, eh, maybe not. who knows.

for my input on the 50/100 case, with even stacks, depending on the tightness of the players behind me, and all that jazz, i'll either raise to all in or 250ish. much more likely all in. with the uneven stacks, i'd probably do the same thing, figuring that the short stacks behind me will come along with anything they would have reraised a small raise with.

citanul, who apologizes for the mixup.

[adanthar]

lol...I probably standard raise TT-99 and limp 88. This one seems more like a personal preference/depends on the table.

[kyro]

I think your original question was more interesting/thought-rovoking. I think your new question would be more interesting/thought-provoking if you changed the range to 55-77.

[beeyjay]

i limp for 50. raise to 200 in later position a lot depending on whose left to act.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your original question was more interesting/thought-rovoking. I think your new question would be more interesting/thought-provoking if you changed the range to 55-77.

[/ QUOTE ]

well then, poster who i dislike for at least the duration of typing this post., answer the question of your choosing. since you thought it was so interesting/thought-provoking, i'm sure you have more to share than just that you found it to be so. as for the new question, if you think that modifying it to 55-77 is more interesting, do that too.

citanul

[kyro]

sorry, i didn't mean to come off as an ass. i'm at work and the majority of my posts (save for one yesterday which was during lunch /images/graemlins/wink.gif) have been short and stilted. i'll answer more thoroughly when i get home.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
hoo hah, this is intersting stuff, unfortunately, although this question is interesting and worthwhile, it is not the question i meant to post!!!

same question, blinds are 25/50 was the actual question that i had been discussing with a friend. may be considered a less interesting question than the first one, but personally, eh, maybe not. who knows.

for my input on the 50/100 case, with even stacks, depending on the tightness of the players behind me, and all that jazz, i'll either raise to all in or 250ish. much more likely all in. with the uneven stacks, i'd probably do the same thing, figuring that the short stacks behind me will come along with anything they would have reraised a small raise with.

citanul, who apologizes for the mixup.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i was about to reply that this situation would be a much more interesting debate. your original is an easy push. as it stands, in level three with position i will usually limp (depending on how terrible the bb is)....i have something against playing push/fold poker until i have <13 bb. (note: this applies to 800 chip games).

[wuwei]

If the blinds are 25/50, I'll make a standard open raise to 175 with all of the hands. I'll do this in a 800 or 1000 chip stack game.

If the blinds are 50/100 and we're all even stacked, I'll likely push 9 handed. When the blinds start getting this high with many opponents left, I open up quite a bit on my willingness to accept a coin flip for all my chips. The blinds are getting steep and I need to do something to extend my stack. One nice thing about being 9 handed is you do get a lot of hands in between blinds. However, there's a lot of players left and if I don't catch something better than a wired middle pair in the next round, I'm going to be facing 100/200 blinds pretty damn quick with a lot of people left who are also desperate and probably more willing than usual to call me on my steals.

Ideally, I'll either pick up the blinds or get a race to double up. If I double up, I like my chances from here on out. If I get called by a hand that dominates me or I lose my race, that's poker... oh well. Fire up a new game.

[curtains]

Folding these hands is just bad. Allin is clearly better than folding, even after 3 folds. Every fold makes a difference but not with these hands and only 10-11x the BB. I mean that it doesn't matter if 3 or 4 people have folded here, but would matter if your hand was more marginal. Folding 99 is just taking money, ripping it up and throwing it in the fireplace for good measure.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding 99 is just taking money, ripping it up and throwing it in the fireplace for good measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

now that's the type of heated debate we'd like to see.

when you say folding 99, do you mean in the 50/100 spot, or the 25/50 spot? or both? i was hoping you'd show up in this thread, but i'd prefer if you actually showed up and said what you'd do in the variety of spots questioned, instead of having us all do the whole process of elimination thing by what you say is retarded and what is not.

citanul

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding 99 is just taking money, ripping it up and throwing it in the fireplace for good measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

now that's the type of heated debate we'd like to see.

when you say folding 99, do you mean in the 50/100 spot, or the 25/50 spot? or both? i was hoping you'd show up in this thread, but i'd prefer if you actually showed up and said what you'd do in the variety of spots questioned, instead of having us all do the whole process of elimination thing by what you say is retarded and what is not.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

The 50-100 spot its terrible. It's quite terrible to fold in the 25-50 spot too, but okay of course you don't need to move allin. However w TT+99 I would always raise to about 125-150, and I would usually raise here with 88 as well.

I don't like open limping once it gets to 25-50....I've done it before but it's very rare. For instance I would fold with 88 UTG here most of the time, assuming 25-50 blinds.

I didn't even read the whole thread, I just read original post about the 50-100 blinds, and then a few posters act as though folding was reasonable in the situations you laid out(It's not). So I felt I had to respond.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even read the whole thread, I just read original post about the 50-100 blinds, and then a few posters act as though folding was reasonable in the situations you laid out(It's not). So I felt I had to respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool, well, yeah, i agree /images/graemlins/smile.gif

so yeah, same situation, if you had blinds of 25/50, was the same question. thanks for coming back to help edumacate the masses. with gusto and all.

citanul

[curtains]

Well it really does make a difference to me whether I'm 2 off the button or 3 off the button. Well it does usually, but not here, as I'm raising all of these hands with 25-50 blinds whether I'm 2 off or 3 off.

I'm raising 77 also in most games. I usually raise 125-150, but if the slider mistakenly goes to like 175-200 (maybe like 10% of the time), I let it stay. Helps to mix up my bet sizes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If I had like 600 or less in chips, I'd move allin with all of these hands preflop in the 25-50 round.

[bluefeet]

EP (50 or 100)
- even stacks...limp'n. playing for the set/overpair
...will lead out though on a miss with a single LP caller
- short stack on the end...more inclined to push (if read tells me big stack will 'let' me)

CO+ (50 or 100, even or not)
- raising 2.5-3x or pushing depending on who's behind me
....reraised? pushing back depending on who's pushing

[jgunnip]

88-TT w/ blinds of 50/100 even stacks.
I like your play of raising to t250. I'd probably raise to t275 just to disguise it as more of a 3xBB bet than a disguised mini-raise. I might call with TT here and take my chances at flopping the overpair but I am more interested in what other think about this idea. I'm folding to a raise

55-TT w/ 25/50 blinds, even stacks
I am betting the standard t150 in this position. If the next person not to fold pushes and the hand gets folded back to me I am calling with 77+.

If the stacks were uneven it would be much more read dependent IMO. great discussion though!

[Degen]

push 88
push 99
push TT

Andre

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
and they would probably have lower calling standards to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the point...you either

A) Take down the blinds
B) Get called by a hand you're a big FAV against (Ax or under pair)
C) Get called and you're a coin-flip
or least likely...D) You're a huge dog.

% of each taking place...

Probably something like:

A) 60%
B) 20%
C) 15%
D) 5%

So if i'm at all close with the numbers...80% of the time you are loving life...15% you are 50/50 to win and 5% you're killed...i'll take this any day.


Andre