View Full Version : Living in the US, Learning the English Language
Amidst all the racist posts, I figured I'd take a stab and say if you are living in the US, learn [censored] English...k thx.
This was sparked by a recent "post" on our company "forum" about "Why isn't such and such printed in Spanish?"
I was inclined to respond "Why is ANYTHING in the US printed in Spanish", but valued my job (at least at this point and time...basically today) more than responding.
Obviously there are exceptions to international dealings between countries, so I am talking soley about US relative content ONLY.
And no, I don't expect other countries to support the English language. If I go there, I expect to speak their language or use sign language or grab [censored] and flash money to communicate.
I just think the US is going too far with supporting the Spanish language. (i.e. Spanish manuals, Spanish instructions, dedicated Spanish channels, dedicated Spanish radio stations, etc). Not to mention how Mexican immigrants are somehow PROTECTED and GAIN BENEFITS in the US. No wonder they want to come here.
Now listen, I support Bush (FU if you don't, yeah I'm opinionated) but I am not sure WTF he is thinking here:
WTF BUSH (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52647-2004Jan3?language=printer)
Meanwhile, those already living in the US (and US citizens at that) can't find jobs.
Anyway, back to living in the United States with exceptional conformity and acceptance of the Spanish language. Why not have French, Russian, German, etc "specialities"?
Isn't that biased and racist?!?!
OK yeah I'm an opinionated [censored], I agree.
einbert
05-19-2005, 11:21 AM
If your company will make more of a profit by being able to sell more copies of something printed in Spanish than it will cost them to produce the product.....well you can see where I'm going with this.
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If your company will make more of a profit by being able to sell more copies of something printed in Spanish than it will cost them to produce the product.....well you can see where I'm going with this.
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Not the case, this was an internal document only...Confidential and only for the employees of the company.
But I do see where you are going with it...unfortunately that just makes the "issue" worse.
PoBoy321
05-19-2005, 11:27 AM
Considering the fact that there is no official US language, there are large spansish-speaking populations throughout the US and that hispanics are the fastest-growing ethnic group in the country, I'm actually surprised that more spanish-language media isn't available.
Now go to hell, you ignorant biggot.
BreakfastBurrito
05-19-2005, 11:28 AM
What are the drawbacks of becoming a bilingual nation? Plenty of places around the world do it. Furthermore, how is the proliferation of Spanish infringing upon your basic rights in such a way that you feel it necessary to fight back against it?
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What are the drawbacks of becoming a bilingual nation? Plenty of places around the world do it. Furthermore, how is the proliferation of Spanish infringing upon your basic rights in such a way that you feel it necessary to fight back against it?
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Excellent question, but when it becomes a requirement to provide something in Spanish or something is only provided in Spanish when English has been the predominant language of this country for many years, I find that to be a difficult pill to swallow.
Furthermore, why is Spanish the predominant "secondary" language. If we are to be a multi-lingual country, so be it...I'm all for diversity but don't see why Spanish is given some precedence over all other languages in the United States nor why some resources within the US are provided with Spanish speaking individuals in mind but not any other language (and sometimes not English, i.e. Spanish only).
Interesting link on the controversy:
Yahoo on US Official National Language (http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011107.html)
From the article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52647-2004Jan3?language=printer):
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Undocumented workers now pay billions of dollars annually into Social Security but do not collect benefits because they give their employers fraudulent Social Security numbers.
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Good for them. This is a problem?
PoBoy321
05-19-2005, 11:37 AM
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Furthermore, why is Spanish the predominant "secondary" language. If we are to be a multi-lingual country, so be it...I'm all for diversity but don't see why Spanish is given some precedence over all other languages in the United States nor why some resources within the US are provided with Spanish speaking individuals in mind but not any other language (and sometimes not English, i.e. Spanish only).
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Considering the fact that there is no official US language
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Truth
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there are large spansish-speaking populations throughout the US
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There are many non-English speaking populations throughout the US, not just Spanish-speaking.
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that hispanics are the fastest-growing ethnic group in the country
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See my Bush link and apply your local US geography (see Mexico below) for why this is not difficult to understand.
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I'm actually surprised that more spanish-language media isn't available.
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While you are surprised there aren't more Spanish-language media, I am surprised where there are either ANY or why there aren't more French/Russian/German/Vietnamese/etc language media.
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Now go to hell, you ignorant biggot.
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I think I'm already there, or at least the US is approaching it. Beyond the context of the US, or this world, there is no hell but that is just my biggoted opinion! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
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From the article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52647-2004Jan3?language=printer):
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Undocumented workers now pay billions of dollars annually into Social Security but do not collect benefits because they give their employers fraudulent Social Security numbers.
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Good for them. This is a problem?
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This seems suspect, as most illegal/non green-card holding/non US citizens are not documented. Futhermore a company that submits fradulent information for employees is eventually subject to getting caught and losing much of their profit margin to the US government (see Enron for fraudulent dealings and results).
I think the better question is...where the hell is all that money going?
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Furthermore, why is Spanish the predominant "secondary" language. If we are to be a multi-lingual country, so be it...I'm all for diversity but don't see why Spanish is given some precedence over all other languages in the United States nor why some resources within the US are provided with Spanish speaking individuals in mind but not any other language (and sometimes not English, i.e. Spanish only).
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Interesting article Most Widely Spoken Languages - WorldWide (http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm)
Wonder how accurate this is 15 years later... (http://www.ethnicharvest.org/regions/50languages.html)
Slacker13
05-19-2005, 11:45 AM
Join my club. web page (http://www.us-english.org/)
BreakfastBurrito
05-19-2005, 11:46 AM
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Yes. I think Avid vastly underestimates just how much more commonly spoken Spanish is than all other foreign languages in this country. It's also the most relevant language to our region of the world.
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Yes. I think Avid vastly underestimates just how much more commonly spoken Spanish is than all other foreign languages in this country. It's also the most relevant language to our region of the world.
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I don't think that I underestimate this, I think my concern is that Spanish is "gaining ground" on the English language. It is scary how much is supported by Spanish IMO.
Given the length and predominance of the English language in the United States, what I am saying is LEARN the English language. I don't object to learning another language or using another language, but altering the construct of companies, business, subjective material to accomodate those that live here but refuse to learn the English language seems beyond a measure of ethnic or multi-lingual flexibility and is really forcing progressive change throughout the US and away from the traditional language used here (again IMHO).
As an analogy with poker in mind, imagine you go to a casino and get involved with a hand where controvery arises and the entire casino only speaks Spanish yet there is money involved. You speak English, the casino is in the United States...and you do what?
jakethebake
05-19-2005, 11:56 AM
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Yes. I think Avid vastly underestimates just how much more commonly spoken Spanish is than all other foreign languages in this country. It's also the most relevant language to our region of the world.
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IMO this issue has nothing to do with an official language. It's common sense. If you live somewhere you learn at least enough of the local language to get by. You can function in the U.S. w/o speaking Spanish. You cannot function w/o speaking English unless people bend over backwards for you. Therefore, in order not to be a drag on society, they should learn English. And, while Spanish is the most spoken, it's not the most relevant. Much more business is done in English and more media is created in English.
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Join my club. web page (http://www.us-english.org/)
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Nice site...
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U.S.ENGLISH believes that the passage of English as the official language will help to expand opportunities for immigrants to learn and speak English, the single greatest empowering tool that immigrants must have to succeed.
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thatpfunk
05-19-2005, 11:58 AM
1) You aren't very bright.
2) Politics forum.
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I figured I'd take a stab and say if you are living in the US, learn [censored] English
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Why? It isn't the official language. If they want to learn it for a job or school or whatever they have the option. If they don't think they need to, then why should they?
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I was inclined to respond "Why is ANYTHING in the US printed in Spanish"
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Because there is a large number of people who speak Spanish maybe?
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I just think the US is going too far with supporting the Spanish language. (i.e. Spanish manuals, Spanish instructions, dedicated Spanish channels, dedicated Spanish radio stations, etc)
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The US does not support any specific language. Companies choose to do what is in their own best interests. If that means making products accessible to Spanish speakers, then they do. I can't believe you're actually employed.
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Not to mention how Mexican immigrantsare somehow PROTECTED and GAIN BENEFITS in the US. No wonder they want to come here.
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Of course they are. That's what the country was founded on smart guy. If you were talking about illegal-immigrants then you should have gone to Politics Forum.
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Isn't that biased and racist?!?!
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No, but you are.
Get hit by a bus.
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Because Spanish is the 2nd most commonly spoken language in America.
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Yes. I think Avid vastly underestimates just how much more commonly spoken Spanish is than all other foreign languages in this country. It's also the most relevant language to our region of the world.
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IMO this issue has nothing to do with an official language. It's common sense. If you live somewhere you learn at least enough of the local language to get by. You can function in the U.S. w/o speaking Spanish. You cannot function w/o speaking English unless people bend over backwards for you. Therefore, in order not to be a drag on society, they should learn English. And, while Spanish is the most spoken, it's not the most relevant. Much more business is done in English and more media is created in English.
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That is essentially my point, as many Non-English speaking individuals simply refuse to even learn the language. Even those that do, hardly learn the essentials to get by. You should see half the people I work with, how they even got past the interview is beyond me.
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1) You aren't very bright.
2) Politics forum.
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I figured I'd take a stab and say if you are living in the US, learn [censored] English
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Why? It isn't the official language. If they want to learn it for a job or school or whatever they have the option. If they don't think they need to, then why should they?
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I was inclined to respond "Why is ANYTHING in the US printed in Spanish"
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Because there is a large number of people who speak Spanish maybe?
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I just think the US is going too far with supporting the Spanish language. (i.e. Spanish manuals, Spanish instructions, dedicated Spanish channels, dedicated Spanish radio stations, etc)
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The US does not support any specific language. Companies choose to do what is in their own best interests. If that means making products accessible to Spanish speakers, then they do. I can't believe you're actually employed.
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Not to mention how Mexican immigrantsare somehow PROTECTED and GAIN BENEFITS in the US. No wonder they want to come here.
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Of course they are. That's what the country was founded on smart guy. If you were talking about illegal-immigrants then you should have gone to Politics Forum.
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Isn't that biased and racist?!?!
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No, but you are.
Get hit by a bus.
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Awesome post! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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1) You aren't very bright
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I don't disagree.
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2) Politics forum.
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My bad, Politics forum would have been better, you are correct sir.
Some insightful posts all around, I guess the frustration/venting was primarily due to people not wanting to learn the English language.
The example given, an internal document was provided in English. It is a requirement to know English to work here. Read the document in English, why does it need to be printed in Spanish (and cost the company money)?
My statement was applied to everyone living in the US, but it is a valid point that the US doesn't have an official language (although IMO it should be English) but even if it did, do you honestly think that would change anything? I doubt it.
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The US does not support any specific language. Companies choose to do what is in their own best interests. If that means making products accessible to Spanish speakers, then they do. I can't believe you're actually employed.
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Actually I haven't come across a company (in my field) that doesn't REQUIRE English as a pre-requisite for a given job. My opinion on the English language has no impact on my ability to get a job, so I am not sure why it is hard to believe I have one.
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Because there is a large number of people who speak Spanish maybe?
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Because there is a large number of people who ONLY speak Spanish maybe?
thatpfunk
05-19-2005, 12:14 PM
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You cannot function w/o speaking English unless people bend over backwards for you.
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Who is bending over backwards? Companies? They are making a choice to market or sell or hire Spanish speakers. There is no burden.
It is all about choice. The govt does not force corporations to market or sell towards Spanish speakers. Here's a hint: It is profitable.
Every way that you guys try to spin this is a poor attempt to shroud your bigotry and ignorance.
BreakfastBurrito
05-19-2005, 12:20 PM
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I don't think that I underestimate this, I think my concern is that Spanish is "gaining ground" on the English language. It is scary how much is supported by Spanish IMO.
Given the length and predominance of the English language in the United States, what I am saying is LEARN the English language. I don't object to learning another language or using another language, but altering the construct of companies, business, subjective material to accomodate those that live here but refuse to learn the English language seems beyond a measure of ethnic or multi-lingual flexibility and is really forcing progressive change throughout the US and away from the traditional language used here (again IMHO).
As an analogy with poker in mind, imagine you go to a casino and get involved with a hand where controvery arises and the entire casino only speaks Spanish yet there is money involved. You speak English, the casino is in the United States...and you do what?
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I think you overestimate the number of people who come here and "refuse" to learn english. I would bet anything that the percentage of Spanish speaking immigrants who come here and learn English is far in excess than the percentage of Americans who move abroad and learn whatever language is spoken there. Why? Because most other countries offer the type of services you're so terrified of providing to Spanish speakers here.
Secondly, many Spanish speaking immigrants have minimal education and work VERY hard just to make ends meet. Learning English is a herculean task for such a person. Accomodating them is not a threat to the fabric of our society in my eyes.
thatpfunk
05-19-2005, 12:21 PM
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The example given, an internal document was provided in English. It is a requirement to know English to work here. Read the document in English, why does it need to be printed in Spanish (and cost the company money)?
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It is the companies choice to do that. No one is forcing them. They feel it is in their best interests. What is wrong with that? There is no burden, simply choice.
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Because there is a large number of people who ONLY speak Spanish maybe?
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Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with it. They have every right to. If they believe that learning English would improve their lives somehow, they can make the choice to.
jakethebake
05-19-2005, 12:29 PM
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Who is bending over backwards? Companies? They are making a choice to market or sell or hire Spanish speakers. There is no burden.
It is all about choice. The govt does not force corporations to market or sell towards Spanish speakers. Here's a hint: It is profitable.
Every way that you guys try to spin this is a poor attempt to shroud your bigotry and ignorance.
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I'm not being a bigot, not am I ignorant. And I really think you're being an idiot for throwing the word bigot around just because someone thinks it makes sense to learn the local language when you live someplace. I don't dislike immigrants. And I'm not pro closed-society.
I don't disagree that corporations make a decision to market or hire people freely. However, it's also true that our governments, federal & local, spend an incredible amount of money catering to people that refuse to learn to speak English. In some cases, it's dangerous not to be able to read signs (ie. traffic signs.). And it's an incredible inconvenience for a lot of people.
Again, I'm not being bigoted. I don't hate them. I actually respect them. Most immigrants work their asses off. And most Americans should learn a lesson from them in that respect. But it's just silly to remain ignorant of the language that is spoken where you live.
thatpfunk
05-19-2005, 12:52 PM
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However, it's also true that our governments, federal & local, spend an incredible amount of money catering to people that refuse to learn to speak English.
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Well then this has nothing to do with Spanish, it is all languages. If you actively support and want to discuss a nationalized language then I would be happy to read your ideas in the politics forum.
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In some cases, it's dangerous not to be able to read signs (ie. traffic signs.)
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Knowing English is not necessary to drive in the US. There is very little English used, and when it is used, the shape and color of the sign indicate the same meaning.
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However, it's also true that our governments, federal & local, spend an incredible amount of money catering to people that refuse to learn to speak English.
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I live in San Diego, a city highly populated with Spanish speakers, attended a high school in which 55% of the students were immigrants, and have several friends that grew up speaking Spanish. With what I consider to be quite a bit experience I have NEVER met someone (kid, parent, grandparent) who simply refused to learn the language for the sake of stubborness or whatever. There are many, many different reasons why some people don't learn English, and unless it is a requirement, we don't have the right to make them.
Also, I think it would be interesting if you could find a study that details how much money the govt invests. As I've indicated, I don't particularly care since it is not requirement, but it would probably further any chances of intelligent discussion.
Apologies for the bigot remark, I believe you.
jakethebake
05-19-2005, 01:01 PM
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Well then this has nothing to do with Spanish, it is all languages.
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Correct. I said "immigrants" not Mexicans or Latin Americans. I'm not ranting on anyone.
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Knowing English is not necessary to drive in the US. There is very little English used, and when it is used, the shape and color of the sign indicate the same meaning.
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In some cases this is true. Not in all cases. A big white sign or one with flashing lighted words (which I see quite a bit) in a language you don't understand doesn't help you much.
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I have NEVER met someone (kid, parent, grandparent) who simply refused to learn the language for the sake of stubborness or whatever.
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It's not stubbornness in most cases. I think it's mostly that they can't be bothered with it.
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unless it is a requirement, we don't have the right to make them.
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I'm not saying we should require it. But I do think we should stop enabling their ignorance of the English language.
Blarg
05-19-2005, 06:05 PM
Well, first, you're an a_sshole, and second, I agree as far as government goes.
However, as far as commerce goes, dedicated Spanish radio and t.v. stations are money making enterprises, so what the heck is wrong with that. There are billions of dollars to be made from those, and it's all voluntary, so it would be dumb if somebody was NOT doing it.
What bugs me is seeing PBS programs all in Spanish, not even English subtitles. It's like you're having the bird flipped at you. This is an American station, supported partly by the government and partly by Americans who probably for the most part have no idea that some programs aren't even in English. This is at the same time there are three or four Spanish language stations. It really rubs me the wrong way.
As to learning to speak the language of a country you're in, to me it's a form of both practicality and respect. Frankly, lots of immigrants really do hate America, and are here just for the opportunities.
English isn't my first language either, but my family, and all their friends who came over, came over legally and learned English and learned it damn well, and were able to speak without notable accents within a few years. This is a form of self-respect and respect for your adopted country, which you should realize you're damn lucky to have gotten in. I guess it's hard to get that feeling when you just swim over. Of course, we were grateful to be here, like old-timey immigrants were, not angry and disgruntled, prejudiced and refusing to mix in with anyone else, or looking for a welfare dime, like so many new immigrants. We embraced America and Americans, and so became American. America is a huge, fantastic dream traditionally to people all over the world, and immigrants should treat it as such; but unfortunately our popular me-me-me-me modern outlook affects the immigrants as well as the natives, and basically nobody gives a shyt.
Sad, but I don't think that attitude and lack of effort should be rewarded, and not giving a shyt and flaunting it shouldn't be enabled by making it easy for you to get along in a country without knowing the language or following the law.
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