Overbetting the Pot [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

HoldingFolding

05-18-2005, 11:49 PM

I've found myself overbetting the pot recently (see 2 sample hands below). Can someone convince me I shouldn't. My sub-conscious reasoning:
1. Fear of draws
2. If I can get up to $1200 then I can cruise to the bubble (where I'm comfortable), I really don't need to take a risk to get more chips.
3. It's PP 20+2 SnG, someone will probably call having paired the flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t660)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
Hero (t710)
MP2 (t545)
MP3 (t570)
CO (t1070)
Button (t775)
SB (t1270)
BB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, 2 folds, Hero raises to t90, 2 folds, CO calls t90, Button calls t90, 2 folds, UTG calls t75.

Flop: (t385) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t400, CO folds, Button folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t785

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t785. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t785)
Button (t775)
SB (t770)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t1740)
MP1 (t670)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t860)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, 4 folds, Hero raises to t100, UTG calls t85, UTG+1 calls t85, MP1 calls t85, MP2 folds.

Flop: (t425) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets t500, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t925

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t925.

Maulik

05-19-2005, 12:10 AM

example #1 you overbet t15 chips, not a true overbet

example #2 good, but push you aren't leaving yourself with many chips

mcpherzen

05-19-2005, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've found myself overbetting the pot recently (see 2 sample hands below). Can someone convince me I shouldn't. My sub-conscious reasoning:
1. Fear of draws
2. If I can get up to $1200 then I can cruise to the bubble (where I'm comfortable), I really don't need to take a risk to get more chips.
3. It's PP 20+2 SnG, someone will probably call having paired the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you aren't doing much overbetting here at all. In hand #1, you made it $90 pre-flop when a pot-sized raise would have been $70. On the flop, you bet $400 into a $385 pot. In hand #2, you raised exactly the pot to $100 pre-flop. On the flop, you bet $500 into a $410 pot. While, yes, these are technically overbets of the pot, this isn't what's intended by someone saying they "overbet the pot." An overbet of the pot usually means you bet 150% of the pot or more. For example, betting $600 into a $400 pot.

As for your "sub-conscious reasoning" (it's actually your conscious reasoning...do you see why?):

1. Don't fear draws in a SNG. If you bust out because someone outdrew you, you just start a new one. Fear draws in a high buyin MTT because you don't want to get knocked out on one hand after you've invested so much time to build a chip stack and presumably are playing for a much larger prize pool than in a SNG.

2. If you think playing the bubble is comfortable with $1200 chips, you should see how comfortable it is when you have $2000+ chips because you got your AA paid maximally back in level 1. To win any tournament, you need to get ALL the chips at some point. Get as many as you can with a premium hand at any level.

3. Probably, but not necessarily. Always make sure you leave your fishy opponents plenty of room to run a bluff at you.

I would have bet about $100-$200 on the flop in hand #1. Heck, that board is so friendly to AA, I may have even checked, willing to give a free card, but primarily in the hope that my remaining 2 opponents would bet or bluff.

In hand #2, that board is scary enough that I probably would have gone all in.

--Z

HoldingFolding

05-19-2005, 12:55 AM

Thanks for your answers.

[ QUOTE ]
As for your "sub-conscious reasoning" (it's actually your conscious reasoning...do you see why?):

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. What I meant was it was sub-conscious when I made the bet...and now I am consciously thinking through my reasoning /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I shouldn't have used the phrase 'overbetting the pot'. What I meant was I was making a large - more than 1/2 or 2/3 pot - bet post flop. This seems to be too big a bet to allow my opponents to make a mistake and call.

HoldingFolding

05-19-2005, 08:09 PM

Can anyone convince me I'm betting off betting less or are they correct (bump).

Degen

05-19-2005, 08:19 PM

I usually push these types of flops. Why bet 80% of your stack? Even if you flop a set or a huge hand...push still, these donk's will think you're bluffing and call w/ underpair.

NH's

Andre

liucipher

05-19-2005, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
are they correct

[/ QUOTE ]
yes.

Hand 1 is the most beautiful flop in the world to AA when you've raised preflop and cleared out most of the junk holdings. That flop isn't helping anyone w/o pocket pair, and that's what the people behind you are thinking. Try to induce a bluff by representing a big ace that hasn't fallen and check. If they bet small, just call and act meek. If they bet big, then they're probably committed so just push away.

Hand 2 - As has been noted, you've committed yourself to the pot so you may as well push. It's also coordinated, so you cannot let people see the turn cheaply. There's nothing fish love more than a "wild" all-in overbet. It induces "you can't have it" calls like no other. They'll be much more suspicious of someone who raises 75% of their stack, because it seems like you WANT to get all your chips in but are afraid of losing action.